[Fluffy]

I would bid many clubs, 3 or 4 (I sadly play 4♣ as artificial)

[Kalvan14]

I'd open 2♥ (hearts + spades) with my normal partner.
Without this gadget, or a similar one, I'd open 1♠

The 2nd hand is an easy 1♠.

The minor 2-suiter: in my system is a 2NT (5-5 in the minors, or 6 clubs-4 diamonds). In a pick-up partnership, 4♣ if available as pre-empt

[Winstonm]

As long as the spade suit is the longer suit I don't see a problem with opening either hand - it's impossible to show this pattern in one bid by passing and backing back in; however, with 56 pattern I would pass and hope to be able to Michael's the hand as with a preference partner will bid heart with 2/2 patterns.

I think the worry about partner doubling is overblown - at least at imps. At MPs I may want to pass these hands in deference to this possiblity though.

Winston

[mike777]

If Roth opens 2s...cool...but can someone site a source?

[Gerben42]

2♠ with FIVE Hearts? I can't really believe that. BTW I open the other hand all white with 4♣.

[Robert]

Hi Kalvan14

Have you checked your 'system' bid with your system bid on post 109200 where

your system bid shows Axx Jx KQ109xx KJ when you opened 2NT?

Now your system bid of 2NT shows 5-5 minors or 6C and 4D.

It is all four shapes now? The bidding example hand now is

x x Axxx KQJxxxx a 1=1=4=7 hands

You are offering partner a choice of minors when you would rather play clubs oppsite 'x' than Diamonds opposite Kxx ?

So your system bid shows either

Axx Jx KQ109xx KJ or x x Axxx KQJxxxx or assorted 5-5 or 6-4 minors?

Precision bidding in action.

Best regards,
Robert

[tysen2k]

jahol, on Dec 19 2005, 05:35 AM, said:

Would you open the bidding with

KJ6532--KJ543--65--void?

Would you open with

KJ6532--AJ543--65--void?

Choosing to open or not should depend on what you think the purpose of opening is. If you think it's to show the balance of strength then you should pass. If you think it's to describe your hand as best as you can then open. 2-suiters are the hardest hands to describe and so they should be opened as soon as possible. You might not be able to come back in and get the needed information across.

Tysen

[awm]

I tend to pass with these hands when playing fairly standard methods. Obviously if partner expects me to open most nine-counts with 1M I will open these hands, and if I have a gadget to show a weak 5-5 majors hand I can use that.

My feeling is that starting with pass, the hand will rarely pass out. Usually I can come into the auction later, often with a two suited bid that will describe my hand fully in one call. The initial pass limits the hand and will keep us out of a lot of no-play 3NTs or major suit slams.

These hands have too many flaws for me to open a weak two bid -- the suit quality is rather poor and the loser count is too low, and it's too likely to go all-pass when we have a huge fit in the other major (neither opponent can takeout double because they have too many spades and too few hearts). Perhaps if I were playing a Fantoni-Nunes or Roth-Stone style where "weak" two bids are much more sound, the weak two would have more appeal.

Another interesting thought is to open these hands with 2♦ (multi). Seems like this will find either major suit fit if you've got it -- if partner bids 2♥ then you correct to spades knowing partner cannot hold a big heart fit; if partner bids 2♠ then you correct to 3♥ knowing you've found a real fit (and that partner has at most two spades)...

[han]

The second one is a clear opener to me.

The second one is close. I would open it with an agreement to open very aggressively, otherwise I would pass.

[Kalvan14]

Robert, on Dec 21 2005, 06:43 AM, said:

Hi Kalvan14

Have you checked your 'system' bid with your system bid on post 109200 where

your system bid shows Axx Jx KQ109xx KJ when you opened 2NT?

Now your system bid of 2NT shows 5-5 minors or 6C and 4D.

It is all four shapes now? The bidding example hand now is

x x Axxx KQJxxxx a 1=1=4=7 hands

You are offering partner a choice of minors when you would rather play clubs oppsite 'x' than Diamonds opposite Kxx ?

So your system bid shows either

Axx Jx KQ109xx KJ or x x Axxx KQJxxxx or assorted 5-5 or 6-4 minors?

Precision bidding in action.

Best regards,
Robert

Robert,
you are really starting to annoy me.
As you would certainly realised if you had taken care to read my posts, rather than skimming through them, Axx Jx KQ109xx KJ is a 2NT opening in 4th seat only. In all the other positions it is pre-emptive with both minors.

[Robert]

Hi Kalvan14

I do not plan on learning your system.

If you reread your post 109527

"2NT=5-5 minors or 6C and 4D" There is no mention of 4th seat or any other

seat opening requirement. I do not try and remember the details of your

methods. Why would anyone want to do that?

I do comment on your methods when you cite Max Hardy as a source of FA and

his 1998 book page 97 examples directly refutes your claim.

Perhaps if you read 'in detail' the source that you cite, you would draw fewer

comments from me.

Why would citing facts annoy anyone?

Best regards,
Robert

[Kalvan14]

Well, so i've finally found someone who pre-empts in 4th chair. I'm not completely taken by surprise. For the last time: please read my posts, before shooting both barrels.

If your comments were constructive, frankly I would not mind them at all.

[jahol]

Well, I asked for your opinion, because the result of my decision was pretty bad...but the question, I asked myself was whether to blame myself or my partner. There was so much excitement around the table after finishing the board that I, in fact, forgot, whether I had the first or second variant of two-suiter - that was the reason, I presented two variants.

I decided to pass because:

we bid Michaels with my partner so that I could possibly intervene later to describe my hand more precisely
as soon as there are misfits around the table, we will loose the board with high probability (board a match!), because we will definitely go too high in the auction
when the board belong to the opponents, they can misplay it not expecting such wild distribution
even after my partner opening bid, I can describe the hand relatively well

I was able to find the only drawback of my decision - the opponents can block the auction having huge minor fit...I would have not been able to show my hand sufficiently then.

So...I passed and was waiting for the best...and got it ...my partner opened 5 clubs! When the dummy appeared for the contract 5 clubs doubled, I was said that my decision to pass the hand was non-bridge, it was the decision of a coward....

Jah

[Robert]

HI Mike777

"Picture Bidding" by Alvin Roth. Multi hue bright colored 'rainbow on the cover'

book jacket.

Some very good ideas, I adopted a number of them.

Roth explains how to open 6-5 weak two bids and his reasoning.

This is from Alvin Roth, who only opens 14+HCP one bids.

Granovetter uses Trent Two bids showing about 8-12HCP as I recall.

Fantoni-Nunes plays @ 9+-13 range as I recall.

Hi Kalvan14

Why is it shooting with both barrels when I 'quote your post' to reply?

Why is it shooting with both barrels when I 'quote' your source(Max Hardy) to

reply? Facts are facts.

You are entitled to hold any opinion. If your facts are in error, citing a bridge book

(I have 400+ bridge books) will often just lead to me posting a

'correction' of the facts.

My comments are constructive. I do cite facts and sources when others

sometimes do not. Your 'misquoting' Max Hardy triggered one correction.

I do not preempt in 4th seat. I do open decent hands higher than the one level as

most experts do in 4th seat. Weak two bids are minimum opening bids in 4th seat.

My normal 4th seat opening range is @ 11-13HCP for my Multi 2D opening.

"If" you carefully read the beginning of this thread, it asks, "do you open first

seat BAM?" I answered what I would do in 1,2,3rd seats.

I did not use his methods of opening single suited weak two bids, since I do play

Alvin Roth's 'shape' style for weak two bids and I also open using a Multi 2D bid.

I read your posts carefully, I would appreciate the same treatment in return

before you attempt using your straw man tactics. It would save me from having

to correct your posts quite so often.

You might also want to read Max Hardy's 2/1 book. It has some very good ideas

and is also a very well written book. You could learn the correct way to play fast

arrrival using the Max Hardy style.

Regards,
Robert

[han]

edit by Han

[Kalvan14]

Robert, as always I write one thing and you interpret the contrary.
Just for the record:

• I am not interested in your comments
  
• I read Hardy's book in the late 80s, and i found it a good book.
  
• The correct way to play FA is to exclude controls in the unbid suit. feel free to play it as you like.
  
• I will reciprocate your kindness, suggesting you an old evergreen book: Why You Loose at Bridge, by S.J. Simon. It was written 60 years ago, but its messages are still quite to the point. Enjoy.

[whereagles]

Hardy's book is very badly written, it's biased towards easy-to-bid hands and the system presented is not very flexible. (This is my personal opinion, mind you.)

Still, it has a lot of information and is definitely an important textbook for those who want to study 2/1. Just be sure you criticize his statements because sometimes he's just wrong

[Joe de Balliol]

I think opening 2♠ with both and following up with 4♥ gets across your hand beautifully. Even undiscussed, partner will be able to place you with something similar to your current hand. With the second, I'm slightly hesitant because to do so risks missing slam, but I think that's a small chance.

As for the other side of the question, I think I'd go for 4C, because 3C makes it too easy for a 4C cue to land them in the right 4M.

J

[Al_U_Card]

Hannie, on Dec 22 2005, 11:01 AM, said:

edit by Han

I, too, edited my comments on this thread, but I didn't post them as my Christmas present to everyone....happy Holidays!