[whereagles]

Walddk, on Mar 16 2006, 09:58 PM, said:

whereagles, on Mar 16 2006, 08:25 PM, said:

It's matchpoints, right? Open 4♥, intending to (eventually) double later to show the extra defense.

4♥!!??? Please confirm that you accidentally posted here when you meant to do it in The Water Cooler, if you need a smile ...... forum. But OK, I'll bite and smile

Roland

Why are you always picking on me? You're getting irritating. Is that the idea?

Anyway, if you don't understand why 4♥ is an option, then I guess you should stick to imps.

[FrancesHinden]

barmar, on Mar 16 2006, 11:16 PM, said:

mikeh, on Mar 16 2006, 04:27 PM, said:

Ok, that was my kind and gentle rant... you should have seen what I originally wrote. Please, please try not to tailor your auctions so as to get a good result as the cards lie: you are fooling only yourselves, or those who read these posts in the hope of learning how to handle difficult hands.

Kind and gentle? Now I feel bad for having emailed my partner asking him to check here. I was expecting criticism, not insults. He's a decent player, hardly a beginner, and I've been happy to have him as a regular partner for the past 4-5 years. He made a mistake in a relatively uncommon auction with freakish hands -- he thought he was reasonably putting on the brakes when we were in a total misfit.

And I didn't realize 3♣ was a game force in our auction, I thought I was forcing to game when I bid over his 3♥ (since there's no room for both forcing and invitational bids there, it should be assumed to be forcing).

I'm sorry if you think I am being rude as well, but I agree with (nearly) everything mike wrote. If you don't know that (in standard methods) 1H-1S-2H-3C is game forcing, then your grasp of basic bidding is not advanced or expert.

As for the actual hand, starting the auction

1H - 1S
2D - 3C
3H

seems obvious

Over 3H from opener, I would bid 3S as responder showing a good hand with spades (opener could have Qx AKQxxx Axxx x where knowing about the spade fit helps).

As opener I would bid 4D over 3S, which must imply pretty close to a 7-5, maybe a 6-5 with good hearts.

Now responder has a difficult call. A load of extra high cards, but a mis-fitting hand and knowing that partner's "extra values" are likely to be mainly extra length in the red suits. I think it's marginal between giving up with 4H and making a slam try. That's consistent with slam being very poor but playable (basically hearts 3-2 and the diamond finesse) on that hand.

[FrancesHinden]

joshs, on Mar 17 2006, 12:14 AM, said:

awm, on Mar 16 2006, 04:55 PM, said:

Well I agree with most of what's been posted.

I'm not sure why mikeh claims that after 1♥-1♠-2♦-3♣, opener's 3♥ bid shows extra values though. Even if we'd always rebid 2♥ with a minimum 6-4 (far from clear to do this, I think, since 2♦ will often generate a 2♥ correction anyway, whereas especially if the hearts are poor it can be wrong to unilaterally insist on hearts and show six cards instead of nine)... what's opener's rebid with a hand like:

xx
AKxxx
KQxx
xx

If 3♦ shows five-five, 3♥ shows 6-4 with extras, and 3♠ shows three-card support (or at least doubleton honor), then what's opener to bid? 3NT with two small clubs? If in your style 3♠ is normally doubleton, then change a small spade to a small club and we have the same problem.

My impression was that the standard style uses 3♥ as a "waiting bid" with no convenient call, which could be 6-4 or just a hand with no clear stopper in the fourth suit and no real fit for partner. This would certainly not show extra values. In fact 3NT seems to me a fairly normal call over this 3♥ bid, saying "hey, I have a club stopper and this hand sounds misfitty, let's play 3NT." Of course I'd pull to 4♥ with opener's hand. It would not occur to me to bid 4♥ as responder, since this could be a 5-1 fit (or 6-1 fit opposite a min with a heart suit not good enough to rebid 2♥). Bidding 3♠ over 3♥ could be right, but it will be difficult to ever get to 3NT when partner can't raise the spades, and this spade suit isn't really good enough to play opposite a small singleton in general.

I don't think 3H shows extras, it may not even be a 6 card suit, since you have to rebid something with Kx AKQxx xxxx xx.

I wouldn't say that 3H is totally a waiting bid. I think the expert style is when you have a choice between a between a number of forcing calls that are equally descriptive (or misdescriptive) you pick the cheapist one, since that saves space to explore all strains.

So on adam's example xx AKxxx KQxx xx, think its clear to rebid 3D, which gives partner room to preference hearts on 2 and you room to preference spades on 2 next. But with Kx AKxxx Qxxx xx you probably just need to bid 3H or 3S since the diamonds are extremely weak. There is a case to be made that 3D should just be a waiting bid, saying nothing, but I don't think thats common.

Now I'm going to be rude to a few other people as well. Always good to start the day off well!

We're now talking about the auction
1H - 1S
2D- 3C
?

when opener has a 2542 distribution

i) If you think that opener's rebid holding Kx AKQxx xxxx xx or similar is anything remotely resembling a problem, then I'm expect your partner thinks you are a hog. That's not a hand you need to 'temporise' with at all, it's an easy 3S bid.

ii) I also believe 3S is right holding xx AKxxx KQxx xx, and I also don't think this is an issue (though I am aware more people would disagree with me here).

When responding to an enquiry (which is what 4th suit is really) we always ask ourselves: what have I shown so far, and what is the most important thing I haven't shown?

When the auction starts 1H - 1S - 2D, as opener we have shown
- 5 or more hearts
- 4 or more diamonds
- 0,1, or 2 spades OR 3 spades with extra values

(we would raise 1S to 2S on a minimum 3541)

The 3 spades with extra values will take care of itself (we will bid again), so the main thing partner doesn't know about is that we have 2 spades rather than 0 or 1. Therefore, that's what we should tell him about.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi Frances,

even if one raises spade with a minimum hand
and 3 support, a style issue, those raises
have their adv. and its disadv.,
there exist minimum openers with 1-5-4-3 shape.
And I dont talk about hands with a club suit Hxx.

If you say, you rebid 3D with those hands, thats fine,
than a 3H bid shows a 6 card suit and add. values,
if you say a 3D bid shows always 5-5, than 3H cant
promise add. strength.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Fluffy]

Thre are many options

1♥-1♠
4♥

1♥-1♠
2♥-3♣
3♥-4♥


1♥-1♠
2♦-3♣
3♥-3♠
4♥