[pclayton]

I'll have to remove him from my Christmas card list.

[helene_t]

hrothgar, on Jan 1 2007, 01:18 AM, said:

Maybe my opinion about the death penalty would change if someone I knew and loved were raped or murdered.  Then again, maybe someone who feels personally victimized shouldn't be in a position to make these types of decisions.

Excactly. If the purpose of the death penalty is to motivate potential killers not to kill, the question should be:
"Do you know someone who was murdered because the killer thought: only 16 (or whatever) years in prison, that's cheap, let me kill someone?"

FWIW, I do not have a strong opinion on this subject. I would be strongly against the death penalty, though, if I lived in a country that used lay judges, such as the U.S.

[1eyedjack]

There is an eternal conflict within a sentencing structure that attempts both to deter and to punish.

If you imposed a million pound/dollar/euro/whatever fine for a parking violation it would, generally, be an effective deterrent. However it would be an excessive punishment for the occasional recipient of a ticket.

If you impose the death penalty on a terrorist it would arguably have no deterrent impact whatsoever. It might even have the reverse effect, martyrdom having some attractions to the idealist. On the other hand, depending on your values, it might be regarded as an appropriate punishment.

[helene_t]

1eyedjack, on Jan 1 2007, 12:14 PM, said:

If you impose the death penalty on a terrorist it would arguably have no deterrent impact whatsoever. It might even have the reverse effect, martyrdom having some attractions to the idealist. On the other hand, depending on your values, it might be regarded as an appropriate punishment.

But the psychological explanation for our desire for revanche is the need to deter. So their shouldn't be a conflict between the two.

As for you parking violation example: if all violators get caught, the optimal fine is whatever cost the violation imposes on society. This extreme case of a fine is also known as a fee.

Suppose the chance of getting caught is 1/10. Then the optimal fine is ten times the cost imposed on society. This may seem unjust for those violators who only commit one such offense in their life and happen to get caught. In the case of crimes that are extremely unlikely to be punished this may be a serious dilemma. I wouldn't be too woried about parking violations, though.

[keylime]

I only have 2 comments:

1. Many forget that this was Iraqi law not our own that was used.
2. Richard, why is it that when someone disagrees definitively with your view of the world that they are deemed "less than human"? I can understand the point of not wanting capital punishment but to say someone's pisspoor?

Yes I have my view on it but it's mine.

[pbleighton]

"Many forget that this was Iraqi law not our own that was used."

Oh, please. As I have said, he was an evil butcher, but:

He was tried at U.S. behest, by U.S. puppets, in a show trial (one of the judges was dismissed for being insuffiently pro-conviction), and he was held in U.S. custody until the Iraqis decided to execute him.

Thought experiment: if he had been acquitted, would we have released him? No way.

Peter

[uday]

The watercooler generally runs with far less supervision than the other forum, but it isn't usenet.

[sceptic]

In Thailand a few years back they had a shoot to kill policy for car theft

(apparently and I have no proof this is true, but having been to thailand and knowing quite a few thais as friends I see no reason to believe this never happened)

They had to stop it because a woamn phoned the police up and reported her car had been stolen, just after she had a row with her husband

NOW would she deserve the death penalty ?

[luke warm]

mike777, on Dec 31 2006, 12:02 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Dec 30 2006, 11:36 PM, said:

Any country which has the death penalty can hardly lay claim to be a civilized country.

Ok....what do you do with people who kill people in jail? Just wondering. ~~

good question, mike... if there were any answers they got lost in personal attacks, which makes them hard to find

[the hog]

luke warm, on Jan 2 2007, 07:43 AM, said:

mike777, on Dec 31 2006, 12:02 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Dec 30 2006, 11:36 PM, said:

Any country which has the death penalty can hardly lay claim to be a civilized country.

Ok....what do you do with people who kill people in jail? Just wondering. ~~

good question, mike... if there were any answers they got lost in personal attacks, which makes them hard to find

Jimmy, I have known you for a long time and think you are a nice guy, but this comment disappoints me. You attempt to restrain these people, perhaps in some form of solitary confinement. Killing them is not the answer; it is a brutal act should be eschewed by civilized societies.

[pbleighton]

"Killing them is not the answer; it is a brutal act should be eschewed by civilized societies."

Ron, I agree with your conclusion, but I would state the reason a little differently:

Examples matter, and in a democratic society the examples set by the government are paramount. Capital punishment sends a very clear message: killing people you hate is an acceptable way to solve problems.

It is no coincidence that the U.S. is nearly alone among economically advanced democracies in our retention of capital punishment, and also has a homicide rate an order of magnitude higher than our economic competitors.

And as for the foreign policy correlations....

Peter

[Al_U_Card]

How is it that such intelligent, utopian oriented individuals have generated such a dystopian society?....It's not so much that we aren't intelligent enough its just that we have ingrained in our "survival" instinct to always try to achieve consensus (safety in numbers) which ends up providing the lowest common denominator....

Cars and industries that don't pollute?

People who are treated with dignity no matter what their origin or status?

A thought process that centers on humanity rather than on comparison?

We are all able to do so, it is just a matter of choice and time.....if we still have enough of both left....

[the hog]

I couldn't agree with you more.

[Winstonm]

The death penalty does not deter murder - it prevents repetition of murder; therefore, the death penalty assumes further murderous acts, which is not validated statistically.

The death penalty is simply retribution - if you believe in retribution you would support the death penalty; if you believe in punishment, you would be more likely to support life sentences without parole.

[sceptic]

Quote

Capital punishment sends a very clear message: killing people you hate is an acceptable way to solve problems.

Capital Punishment is not about hating people you sentence to death, I did not hate Saddam Hussain, but I consider that he deserved to die

Life sentence without parole is this not as bad as a slow death, you have taken away all hope and that is as bad as killing someone

Hope is one of the things that makes the world go round, take away peoples hope and you kill that person and slowly kill that society

[luke warm]

The_Hog, on Dec 30 2006, 11:36 PM, said:

Jimmy, I have known you for a long time and think you are a nice guy, but this comment disappoints me. You attempt to restrain these people, perhaps in some form of solitary confinement. Killing them is not the answer; it is a brutal act should be eschewed by civilized societies.

ron, i think you may have misunderstood my post... i'm against the death penalty, but that's a personal choice... my beliefs have nothing to do with my post, though... mike asked a question and got an ad hominem attack, which in anyone's book is a bush (no pun intended) league tactic not conducive to any discussion... i've had many disagreements with different posters, but i'd challenge anyone to show personal attacks i've made

sometimes people make the mistake of thinking that things i post are my personal beliefs, but i'd say it runs 50/50... i can argue a point from both a personal and philosophical perspective, and don't often differentiate between the two (even when there is a difference)

[the hog]

Ok Jimmy, you are quite right. I didn't think it was a personal attack on anyone, but I did think you were supporting a comment made by Mike which I really thought was somewhat offensive.
My apologies once again.

[luke warm]

The_Hog, on Jan 1 2007, 11:53 PM, said:

Ok Jimmy, you are quite right. I didn't think it was a personal attack on anyone, but I did think you were supporting a comment made by Mike which I really thought was somewhat offensive.
My apologies once again.

no apology necessary, ron... happy new year

[FrancesHinden]

sceptic, on Jan 2 2007, 04:05 AM, said:

Life sentence without parole is this not as bad as a slow death

No it isn't. It might depend on the coniditions in the prison, but life sentence with no parole in a typical Western European prison or execution? I know which I'd take.

[Rain]

I don't know.

I am mostly opposed to the death penalty...but now and then I find myself wanting to get rid of some heinous people. Forever!

People who seem to add pure misery to the world.

Saddam is one, so good riddance. I am happy he's gone forever.