[csdenmark]

At midnight Bulgaria and Romania joined the European Union. No project I am in favor of but it is fact my dreams have become reality. My dreams of my youth active in human rights and especially active in rallying the former ugly regimes of Eastern Europe.

This is a milestone as now extra 30 mill. inhabitants have options for new and prosperious future.

Borders for Europe are disputed but there is no doubt that these 2 nations are clearly within the borders. The 2 countries are likely to be the hardest challenge until now for the community - and with good will we will overcome.

[sceptic]

too much to fast sorry claus, I do not share your joy

[Gpm_bg]

As a bulgarian, i can tell you that i'm pleased that we are in EU already.
But also i'm agree that we aren't prepared enough.
That will be great shock for our economy, i hope for good.
Our producers will have to meet big competition with EU firms, we should to wait if we want to work in EU depend of the protected period for every country.
But after all Bulgaria and Romania belong to the Europe and we should to be part of the EU Family.
Some of the newspapers make western europe's people to think that is truly criminal region, but that is not true.

So i think that Europe should to be more happy then sad about membership of Bulgaria and Romania. Better to be together then separate.

Well, "Wellcome in Europe"

[hotShot]

Everything involved in the quality of life: culture, education, social security and even basics like food depend on on the economic success of the society.

If you take a look what happened to the free economic, you will notice that it is dominated by "global players". These global players have the power to decide which national economy may benefit from the creation of value they have. It's their bookkeeping that decides, where the main profit was made. Bangladesh or Denmark thats just a question of taxes and inflation.

Economy is no longer government-controlled on a national level. If the government is not obedient enough, just tell them you need to fire a few thousand employees or move your whole business to somewhere else and they will realize that the domino effect of thousands of unemployed people will be that the reduced buying power will cause even more unemployed people. With fatal effects to the nations social security and to the national finances.

Take a look at environmental problems, lots of them are at least multinational or global. They are beyond national control.

Public health is another thing that outside of national control.

You didn't like when Belarus was controlled from Moskau? How do you like what GASPROM did to them? National governments have no defense against economic power.

To get all this under control again government has to get multinational or global too.
There is no other way. The EU has to grow as fast as possible, even beyond the borders of Europe (although it may need to change it's name).
The EU develops common political, social, environmental and economic standards and thats what we all need.

[mink]

Ok, Robert, the EU defines the standards. But like Germany doesn't succeed in creating a balanced level of economic prosperity in all it's regions, the EU will never reach this goal among the EU member states. On the contrary, while this goal is implemented in the German constitution, it is not an EU goal at all. And it cannot be an EU goal, because important decisions about infrastructure, health care, social security, education, minimum wages, taxes and deficit building are still made on the national level. The nations still compete for investments and will continue to do so. This causes the share that economy had to pay for health care and pension funds for their employees has been frozen or even reduced ("Senkung der Lohnnebenkosten"), income and corporate taxes were reduced, consumer taxes were increased, public institutions like baths, theaters and museums receive reduced budgets and will soon start to close, and everybody is happy that the annual deficit is lower than last year, but nobody mentions that the total public deficit still grows at a very insane rate.

I agree that the standard of living will converge during the next few decades. But in spite of growing economical productivity it will not converge to the Swiss level, but rather maybe a little above the Bulgarian level, if we are lucky. I do not see that the EU policy does anything to stop this process, but rather takes care that it performs smoothly.

Karl

[csdenmark]

To me it looks like the EU project is not fit for the future. The need for security, stability and reconciliation is in fact the NATO project. I think they have nothing else to do today. Thats what the new EU-memberstates are looking for and they will not find that in EU.

The economic project Bruxelles has never been able to address in a qualified manner. The memberstates themselves set their agendas and others try to look for good examples, right now they will be wise to look north. The solidarity with the problems the old world has created is difficult for me to find in EU. Maybe the imagination will be doing something positive. I dont care as long as we share some of our advantages with them.

The real challenge will be topics rarely addressed, Asia and environment. Sad to say it looks like Bruxelles has no real role to play here. I have read that Angela Merkel's agenda for her 6 months will be the constitution project and environment. I wish her all good luck with the latter. The first is a pure loser option.

[helene_t]

I think EU is a great project, allthough it's not making as much progress as I would like it to. Think of the development that Southern Europe and Eire have gone through since those countries joint the EEC/EU. In Bulgaria and Romania, as well as in Turkey, the requirements that those countries had/have to fullfill in order to join the EU have allready had a positive effect on the legislation.

[csdenmark]

helene_t, on Jan 2 2007, 03:00 PM, said:

I think EU is a great project, allthough it's not making as much progress as I would like it to. Think of the development that Southern Europe and Eire have gone through since those countries joint the EEC/EU. In Bulgaria and Romania, as well as in Turkey, the requirements that those countries had/have to fullfill in order to join the EU have allready had a positive effect on the legislation.

EU is no great project. It is in fact an outdated project. The economic I support, certainly not the currency politic, but I need to remember you about it was established mainly for protecting old agricultural structures begging Germany for further transferrings as they were assumed to feel guilty and had the economic power to do so - with good help from the americans. Thefore it was created as a community for free trade inside custom barriers. Not so proud an approach I think.

The wheel really fell off as they switched focus from economy into political coordination. I know of course the option for that has been there from the very beginning.

I certainly acknowledge that legislation and general political standards has been improved regarding new memberstates. Unfortunately it is pity to see old problems popping up now in Hungary, Czecky and Poland. I think the only countries of the last new members which have adopted western values as a whole are Slovenia and partly the baltics.

I am in doubt why I feel secure that we will see no more military coups in Europe - but anything preventing such is with no doubt justified.

[Rain]

Now they need to pay VAT

=((((((

[sceptic]

We pay loads of VAT and the future does not look good for our tax burden, in the UK lots and lots of items are zero rated for VAT, all this means is oneday they will change the rating to 5% or 10% or whatever they want, it is a back door for bringing in a higher tax burden on the individual

[rona_]

A great opportunity to make a new start for 22 million Romanians who suffered greatly under the brutal dictatorship of Ceausescu, and for 7 million Bulgarians who have had their share of grief with the Ottoman Empire and the Soviets. As one of their leaders said, "An enormous chance for new generations". Paying more VAT would be the least of my worries.

[hotShot]

mink, on Jan 2 2007, 01:16 AM, said:

Ok, Robert, the EU defines the standards. But like Germany doesn't succeed in creating a balanced level of economic prosperity in all it's regions, the EU will never reach this goal among the EU member states. On the contrary, while this goal is implemented in the German constitution, it is not an EU goal at all. And it cannot be an EU goal, because important decisions about infrastructure, health care, social security, education, minimum wages, taxes and deficit building are still made on the national level. The nations still compete for investments and will continue to do so. This causes the share that economy had to pay for health care and pension funds for their employees has been frozen or even reduced ("Senkung der Lohnnebenkosten"), income and corporate taxes were reduced, consumer taxes were increased, public institutions like baths, theaters and museums receive reduced budgets and will soon start to close, and everybody is happy that the annual deficit is lower than last year, but nobody mentions that the total public deficit still grows at a very insane rate.

I agree that the standard of living will converge during the next few decades. But in spite of growing economical productivity it will not converge to the Swiss level, but rather maybe a little above the Bulgarian level, if we are lucky. I do not see that the EU policy does anything to stop this process, but rather takes care that it performs smoothly.

Karl

Karl, you mentioned some valid points.

The EU could make a better job, the process is slow and some important areas are still left at national level. But following the right path at slow speed, is better than going astray.

Using the same currency will -over time- level prices all over EUROland. Income and pensions will have to adapt to that and even taxes will have to level out. So even if politicians are unwilling to reduce national administration in these areas, they can only slow down the process.

Unfortunately for us global leveling between Burkina Faso and the Swiss ( check the HDI list) means a downgrade.

[hotShot]

Rain, on Jan 2 2007, 08:17 PM, said:

Now they need to pay VAT

=((((((

Did you know that VAT was invented 1754/1755 by Earl Brühl in saxonia?

Like any idea that makes money, it was copied worldwide.

[csdenmark]

hotShot, on Jan 3 2007, 02:47 PM, said:

Rain, on Jan 2 2007, 08:17 PM, said:

Now they need to pay VAT

=((((((

Did you know that VAT was invented 1754/1755 by Earl Brühl in saxonia?

Like any idea that makes money, it was copied worldwide.

Never heard of Saxonia I looked it up at Wikipedia.

Saxonia was the first locomotive in Germany, 1838. Influence of it had Anton Schubert.

Doubt very much this has much to do with VAT. But the VAT idea has successfully been implemented, maybe until exhaustion, for the creation of welfare states. Please remember VAT also serves as an important tool for proper handling of currency policy of all nations.

[sceptic]

the Euro and the leveling of prices across europe is going to hurt us all

a few things will happen, the ones with money now or property will have all (the new elite classes)

The ones with nothing will still have nothing, the gap will get bigger

The Rich europeans are already buying large amounts of property and will make a killing, already this is having a detrimental effect on the poorer countrys joining us where there locals (mainly young people) cant afford to buy a house in their own country (may be they cant now but that does not mean that it should be like this

each of these new countries are being stripped of the fit people who are migrating to the wealthier countries for economic advancement and who can blame them.

MY own biggest concern is with europe africa etc etc and migration and I do not care what country they head for, is the ones that are leaving, the clever the fit etc etc, are these not the people that should actually be encouraged to stay to build up the own homeland first, rather than be encouraged to keep labour costs cheap (ok use Great Britain as an example) we have over a few years stabalised our labour costs with imigrant labour


Nostradamus said beware the yellow from the east, his prophecy is coming true but as usual it takes some understanding of what he means asia is the yellow from the east

As usual men and women of great intelect and debating skills are going to reduce more civilizations to dust, they did it with the Roman empire, the Ottoman empire, China etc etc etc , lazy rich europeans are losing control, greed and avarice and nepotisum are the rulers of Europe and they will be its downfall

The comodity of power is going to swing against us all, look at how Russia screwed one of the biggest companies in the world, the people with the gas and oil are going to do what they please, America is no longer the Superpower, all it is is a shell of itself and it is on the decline. America will keep Arabic countries destabilised for ever as if they ever actually got their act together they would become a super power in their own right

do not believe that we do things for the good of man, the eternal struggle is still active and that is the struggle of power, The European union whlst a great idea, is run by crooks and swindlers and the ones that are not, are to weak to do anything about it, we will be ruled by incompetants as the people that could rule well, do not want to get involved with politics as politics iis what ruins empires

[Al_U_Card]

Look at human civilization (a misnomer and quite ironic as far as descriptors go...) and what you will see is China with a few upstarts sprinkled here and there over the last 6 thousand years.

Safety in numbers? The Chinese are the biggest kids on the block and Europe (or rather its power-brokers as you so rightly point out) is trying to do some body-building to not get muscled aside (as the US undoubtedly will) as the US is much too iconoclastic (read paranoid) to effectively ally itself in any meaningful way as it proceeds to alienate the rest of the planet.

btw the Chinese learned well from the Japanese efforts of the 50's through 70's that economic terrorism and financial warfare are much more effective tools for conquering the world and keeping its peoples in thrall. Warfare just empties the pockets and the hearts of those nations unfortunate enough to be caught in the downward spiral.

[helene_t]

Where does all that Asia-phobia come from?

I could understand if someone was Euro-phobic. After all, while we seem to be largely nice people for the moment, our ancestors have been known to terrorize the rest of the World.

But what has Asia ever done to us? Pearl Habour? That's peanuts. Economic war? Come on, there's no such thing as economic war. We have benefitted a lot from the Japanese, Korean and Chinese economic miracles. The worst you can do to harm other countries is to refuse to trade with them. Even that hardly qualifies as "war".

[Al_U_Card]

In the late 60's, the Japanese conspired to dump electronic goods (only because the big 3 Japanese industrial giants, Sony, Matsushita and Mitsubishi, could afford to have their other divisions support the huge losses of their electronic divisions) in north america to destroy the American electronics industry. As sure as a preemptive strike, all that is left is lowly RCA with one fabrication facility in California and one assembly plant in Ontario.

The US considered these actions to be nothing more than capitalistic vigour and thought that the competition would be good.......they just failed to realize how unfair (yes, Virginia, even warlike) that competition was.

The Chinese don't need to conspire but they are burning their candle at both ends....when they destroy their own country, (and that is well on its way) where do you think they will cast their covetous glance? It is only a matter of time.