[1eyedjack]

Scoring: IMP

If West opens 1C, there is a 1H overcall, else no intervention

---

At our table: 2N(21-22) - 3N - Pass
At their table 1C - (1H) - 1N - (P) - 3N - All pass

6N makes on careful play despite DK with North. But 6C is the spot to be (dare I say it even at MP).

Suggestions?

[P_Marlowe]

After a 2NT opening, responder may or may
not check for a minor suit fit.

After the 1C opening, I dont think you will be
able to come up with a realistic auction.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[1eyedjack]

P_Marlowe, on Oct 19 2008, 01:23 PM, said:

After the 1C opening, I dont think you will be
able to come up with a realistic auction.

Oddly enough, when I posted the hand I was expecting responses to show that opening 1C is more likely to find the slam than opening 2N

[P_Marlowe]

1eyedjack, on Oct 19 2008, 07:27 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Oct 19 2008, 01:23 PM, said:

After the 1C opening, I dont think you will be
able to come up with a realistic auction.

Oddly enough, when I posted the hand I was expecting responses to show that opening 1C is more likely to find the slam than opening 2N

If you open 1C, they overcall 1H, I think 1NT is obvious.

The only chance i see is, if you happen to play x or 1S
as denying 4 spades.

Opener now sees a fit, hance can bid 4C as a forcing
raise, and you will reach 6C.

But I prefer 1NT, it showes the stopper, limits the hand.
And even if you can bid and bid X / 1S with the above, it
is still a long way to 6C, because opener will at one point
ask for a heart stopper, responder will show the stopper
and a min. response, opener will sign of in in 3NT.
Because I dont think, it is a brilliant idea to bid 4C, even
if opener sees the fit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[inquiry]

Something like:

1♣ - (1♥) - 1NT - P
2♥ - ( P) - 3♣ - P
4♣ - ( P) - 4♦ - P
4NT - (P) - 5♠ - P
6♣ - all pass

Probalby miss 7♣, as the overcaller rates to have ♥QJT and ♦K or any six hearts and ♦K, and simple red suit squeeze would get him for 13 tricks.

[pclayton]

inquiry, on Oct 19 2008, 07:42 AM, said:

Something like:

1♣ - (1♥) - 1NT - P
2♥ - ( P) - 3♣ - P
4♣ - ( P) - 4♦ - P
4NT - (P) - 5♠ - P
6♣ - all pass

Probalby miss 7♣, as the overcaller rates to have ♥QJT and ♦K or any six hearts and ♦K, and simple red suit squeeze would get him for 13 tricks.

♥QJT isn't good enough. LHO needs specifically ♥QJT87 or any six.

[mike777]

1c=(1h)=1nt
2h!=3c
3s=3nt
4d(rkc in C)=5c(2 with Q)
6c

or
1c=(1h)=1nt
2h=3c
3s=3nt
4c(slam try)=4d(rkc for clubs)
etc to 6c.

As Ben pointed out rebidding 2H is key.

[fred]

P_Marlowe, on Oct 19 2008, 12:59 PM, said:

If you open 1C, they overcall 1H, I think 1NT is obvious.

Disagree at any form of scoring, but violently disagree given that the problem was posed as an IMP problem.

I much prefer raising clubs. My choice in 'standard" would be 2H to suggest a "limit raise or better" - after all, that's what I have! If I was forced to make a second choice it would be 2C, not 1NT.

From what I have seen bidding 1NT in situations like this is a very common mistake (at least I think it is a mistake) that most non-experts and some experts tend to make. Better to raise right away when you have a fit. If you belong in 3NT there is still plenty of room to find out.

Living in fear that partner "might only have 3 clubs" will cost too much on too many occasions when partner doesn't have 4 clubs (ie most of the time).

If you are going to treat the strong hand as balanced, 2NT is not enough in my view. 2C followed by 2NT comes closer to describing the strength of this hand.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[cherdano]

Another way to say it: If partner can't bid NT we probably don't belong in NT.

I wonder whether Fred saw noticed that 2N shows 21-22 for this pair. Given this agreement, opening 2N seems fine to me.

[fred]

cherdano, on Oct 19 2008, 06:02 PM, said:

I wonder whether Fred saw noticed that 2N shows 21-22 for this pair. Given this agreement, opening 2N seems fine to me.

No I didn't - thanks for mentioning it.

Agree that opening 2NT is reasonable if that is your range. I had assumed 20-21.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[kenrexford]

I agree with Fred.

20 HCP. 7 Controls = 23.3-20=3.3=+1=21. Massoively interesting 6-card suit = +1=22. Open 2♣...2NT.

A reasonable auction would be:

2♣-2♦
2NT-3♣(Puppet)
3NT-4N
6♣-P

[edit] Just noticed the 21-22 range. Then 2NT-3♣-3NT-4NT-6♣.

[1eyedjack]

The one saving grace for the 1NT response after 1C-(1H) is that opener may have mentally torn up his Heart King after hearing the 1H overcall, but suddenly it seems to be working full whack again when partner bids 1NT.

That said I am also not enamoured with the 1NT bid. Wrongsides the contract when partner has Qx for one thing, and that is not the only flaw.

[Cascade]

kenrexford, on Oct 20 2008, 08:33 AM, said:

20 HCP. 7 Controls = 23.3-20=3.3=+1=21. Massoively interesting 6-card suit = +1=22. Open 2♣...2NT.

You use "=" in a way that I do not understand.

7 controls is average for a 20 count.

Therefore what we have extra is the trick taking potential of the fifth and sixth club.

What is worse (potentially for NTs) is that we have two doubletons.

[gnasher]

This looks more like 23 than 22 to me, but even opposite 21-22 responder is worth a slam try. I'd do whatever shows 4-4 in the minors and still lets us stop in 4NT.

[rogerclee]

Upgrading this hand out of the 21-22 range is really ridiculous to me.

[peachy]

Instead of 1NT with only a single - but solid - H stopper, only xx spades, and slightly overstrength to boot, I would rather show a limit raise in clubs (2H). That bid has the slight flaw of being only on a 4-card support, but at least it is only ONE flaw whereas 1NT has at least three flaws.

[Codo]

1♣ (1♥) 2♥
2 ♠ 2 NT (Spade control, both red suits controlled)
4 ♣ 4 NT (KC 2+Q)
5 ♦ 6♣ (Kings? No)

2 NT 4NT 6 ♣ would be "my" bidding if I had ever opened this hand 2 NT.
4 NT is quatitative and 6 Club shows an accept + a 5 card Club suit.
Responder may or may not pass this.

[mike777]

i think we all agree if hand is worth invite in clubs 2h....easy.....

[kenrexford]

Cascade, on Oct 19 2008, 04:00 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Oct 20 2008, 08:33 AM, said:

20 HCP.  7 Controls = 23.3-20=3.3=+1=21.  Massoively interesting 6-card suit = +1=22.  Open 2♣...2NT.

You use "=" in a way that I do not understand.

7 controls is average for a 20 count.

Therefore what we have extra is the trick taking potential of the fifth and sixth club.

What is worse (potentially for NTs) is that we have two doubletons.

Actually, 6 controls is average. AA+KK+QQ+JJ = 20 = 6 controls

[FrancesHinden]

kenrexford, on Oct 20 2008, 01:33 PM, said:

Cascade, on Oct 19 2008, 04:00 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Oct 20 2008, 08:33 AM, said:

20 HCP.  7 Controls = 23.3-20=3.3=+1=21.  Massoively interesting 6-card suit = +1=22.  Open 2♣...2NT.

You use "=" in a way that I do not understand.

7 controls is average for a 20 count.

Therefore what we have extra is the trick taking potential of the fifth and sixth club.

What is worse (potentially for NTs) is that we have two doubletons.

Actually, 6 controls is average. AA+KK+QQ+JJ = 20 = 6 controls

The expected, modal and median number of controls in any 20-count is 7 (expected number of controls is slightly more than this, 7.0491113...)

It's 7.6 in any 21-22 HCP hand.