[manudude03]

Scoring: IMP

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Sitting North:

1C-(1H)-X-(3H)
P-(P)-X-(P)
??

1C could be doubleton (if 4432).
3H is showing a full value limit raise (10-12ish)

Do you agree with opening? What now?

[helene_t]

Don't agree with the opening.

Now pass wtp.

[Fluffy]

take out the take out double, partner won't understand 3NT as minors will he?, I think I will try 4 clubs then.

[655321]

Pass.

Very much agree with the opening - W/R I think it is mandatory.

[nigel_k]

655321, on Aug 20 2009, 06:01 PM, said:

Very much agree with the opening - W/R I think it is mandatory.

Kaplan/Rubens evaluates it to 9.8 HCP. When you also consider the preemptive and lead directional value, it's really a no-brainer isn't it?

Anyway if one of my small clubs was the queen I would bid 3♠ now.

[the hog]

I also don't like the opening.
Pass now is a very poor call. I am bidding 3S.

[karlson]

Would not have opened, would pass now.

[Phil]

I wouldn't have opened. I don't mind chunky 11's with some 10's, but come on, more than half the hand is a doubleton.

I hate this position. Didn't pard hear "limit raise"?

While pard looks like 4-0-5-4 or 4-0-6-3, this will be a tough hand to beat unless dummy is surprisingly balanced.

I think I'm opting for 3♠, It looks like we can scramble quite a few tricks on a heart lead: ruff heart, diamond, ruff heart, diamond, ruff heart, A♠, my spades and a club gets us to 9.

I'd probably pass at MPs.

[Cascade]

You will encounter these problems when playing a strong no trump system. If you choose to open on waste paper then you will greatly increase the frequency of the problem hands.

3♠ now and a note to self to only open opening hands in future.

[655321]

nigel_k, on Aug 20 2009, 07:28 PM, said:

655321, on Aug 20 2009, 06:01 PM, said:

Very much agree with the opening - W/R I think it is mandatory.

Kaplan/Rubens evaluates it to 9.8 HCP. When you also consider the preemptive and lead directional value, it's really a no-brainer isn't it?

Oh dear.

You can probably find many threads on light openings if you search the forums. W/R magnifies the gains and reduces the losses from this style.
And I strongly believe that at the vulnerability, it is good to open on any excuse - that it is best to vary the minimum strength of your openings with the vulnerability.

Now you might Pass because you disagree with this philosophy. Fair enough, there are different styles of bidding.

But your reasons for passing...

1) This hand is a not-great 11 count, but to evaluate it as 9.8 is just silly. Is it possible that the K&R algorithm is not 100% accurate for every hand? BTW, I also recommend that you use judgement instead of Rules of 20 or Zar points too (but thank you for not telling me how this hand evaluates under those methods!).

2) Not preemptive? The very fact that you have opened the bidding means that the opponents are in their overcall structure instead of their opening bid structure. Again we disagree.

3) Lead directional value? This assumes partner will be on lead, and is very low down on my list of reasons for bidding.

[Codo]

Oh dear,

so Nigel gave some reasons why he dislikes the opening bid.

You give your opinion. And the idea that the Kaplan/Rubens evaluator is broken.

And besides this, you really think that your opps cannot handle a natural 1 club opening well? And that they are on unsure ground after you use this tool of a devil, just because they need to use their overcall structure instead of their opening structure? Maybe you should stop playing lols.


On the actual hand there is just one side with problems and this is ours. Our problems had been much lower when we had not opened.

One hand does not prove anything. But it proves more then one opinion.

[MFA]

Pass. Automatic.

Partner won't have hidden 6-card suits and voids for this sequence, when he could bid 3♠ or 4♣/♦. It looks as if he is 4153 or 4144 here, which is about the most offensive oriented shapes possible for his bidding.

Pass, and I expect to see a trump lead. This could very easily be +500 against nothing or +800 against a game with just a little luck.

[cherdanno]

Codo, on Aug 21 2009, 06:36 AM, said:

Oh dear,

so Nigel gave some reasons why he dislikes the opening bid.

You give your opinion. And the idea that the Kaplan/Rubens evaluator is broken.

And besides this, you really think that your opps cannot handle a natural 1 club opening well? And that they are on unsure ground after you use this tool of a devil, just because they need to use their overcall structure instead of their opening structure? Maybe you should stop playing lols.


On the actual hand there is just one side with problems and this is ours. Our problems had been much lower when we had not opened.

One hand does not prove anything. But it proves more then one opinion.

You are right, one hand proves nothing. Here, for example, I expect +500 or +800 because my LHO had to show values and hit RHO with a minimum for his (possibly 4-card) overcall, but this doesn't prove opening was correct.

Btw, some good players have problems after overcalling, too, because their overcalls have a pretty wide range - they don't know whether they are bidding constructively or destructively after all.

And do you really think this hand is worth 9.8 points only?

[pooltuna]

Presummably you have agreements to deal with lite opening hands so no problems with opening. Similarly I expect partner to have values for his double and so I pass at this stage.

[gwnn]

We: 11
CHO: 10
LHO: 9
RHO: 10
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Total: 40

[andrei]

I would add some (2-3) points to CHO and subtract them from LHO.

[Phil]

This might be a good time to ask if 3♥ shows 4 or could be 3.

[Codo]

cherdanno, on Aug 21 2009, 11:22 PM, said:

You are right, one hand proves nothing. Here, for example, I expect +500 or +800 because my LHO had to show values and hit RHO with a minimum for his (possibly 4-card) overcall, but this doesn't prove opening was correct.

Btw, some good players have problems after overcalling, too, because their overcalls have a pretty wide range - they don't know whether they are bidding constructively or destructively after all.

And do you really think this hand is worth 9.8 points only?

Sure if you play opps, who bid on lousy four card suits in this vul., you may reach some 500 and 800 against these lunatic juniors.
Against senior citizens you will pay 500 or 800. They tend to have their values while red.

And you think the range of their overcalls is bigger then the range of their openings?
Interesting idea. I always thought that nothing has such a big range then an one of a suit opener in a natural system.
I myself would rate this just a little short of an opener.

[manudude03]

Thanks for the replies. I chose to pass and found quite a surprising layout (the only other junior was CHO). Needless to say there were some heated words after.

Scoring: IMP

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3H was cold with both ♣K and ♦A onside and could easily have been +1, not that it mattered much.

[gwnn]

wow @ SE

at least I got the hcp's for two hands right