[jallerton]

jeremy69, on Mar 20 2010, 04:41 PM, said:

There may be clubs without internet access but a club, and its committee all being without would be a rarity these days. and bearing in mind all affiliated clubs will be uploading their data electronically from next month it suggests that this deprived number will shrink even more drastically.

I suspect that you are correct, but unfortunately this drastic reduction will be achieved as a result of the EBU's policy of encouraging clubs to disaffiliate.

If the Orange Book is not going to be available in printed form, what will happen in the future when pair A calls the TD claiming that pair B's system may be permitted? Is pair B supposed to have brought a laptop so that it can show the TD the relevant permission in the on-line Orange Book?

[blackshoe]

I think it is the responsibility of a TD, at whatever level, to have at hand the tools he needs to do his job. So if there is no printed OB, he better have it available in electronic form. I do not ascribe a similar responsibility to players.

[jeremy69]

Quote

If the Orange Book is not going to be available in printed form, what will happen in the future when pair A calls the TD claiming that pair B's system may be permitted? Is pair B supposed to have brought a laptop so that it can show the TD the relevant permission in the on-line Orange Book?

So no club will print it out because the TD finds that more convenient? If you buy software these days you rarely get a printed manual. You can rely on an online help file or print the pdf manual as you prefer. Do you seriously believe that at present where there is a disagreement about what can be played either pair A or B could produce a printed copy? I think not.

Quote

the EBU's policy of encouraging clubs to disaffiliate

Sounds as if you don't agree with universal membership but calling that a deliberate policy to get clubs to disaffiliate is both wrong and disingenuous. No-one wants any club to disaffiliate. The current scheme of membership is not a sustainable model and membership is falling and has been for a while. Of course there are many possible solutions and this is only one. The elected members of the board supported by it's shareholders have voted to try this solution and have worked hard to get it going. That's the way the organisation works.

[campboy]

Whatever the purpose of universal membership, it is certainly true that some clubs disaffiliating was a recognised consequence of that policy, and one that the people who voted for it decided they could live with. So Jeffrey is not too far off the mark.

Speaking as someone who is trying to keep a university club affiliated, it does seem like the EBU is making it needlessly difficult for us to stay affiliated.

Quote

So no club will print it out because the TD finds that more convenient? If you buy software these days you rarely get a printed manual. You can rely on an online help file or print the pdf manual as you prefer.

Strangely enough, when I buy software I tend to use it on a computer, so an electronic manual is more convenient. When I direct, I do so in a bridge club, so a hard copy of the OB is more convenient. It is, if you'll excuse the pun, a case of apples and oranges. Of course, I could just print it out and staple it together, but why not distribute hard copies to clubs rather than expecting every TD to do that? I would even be happy to pay some reasonable fee for one, as I did for my lawbook.

[jeremy69]

Quote

why not distribute hard copies to clubs rather than expecting every TD to do that? I would even be happy to pay some reasonable fee for one, as I did for my lawbook.

There are two reasons for this. The first is that some will be more reluctant than you to pay for a copy. With previous OBs they have also gone to the tournament players as well as clubs and directors. The second is that it is easier to keep it up to date in online form. The Laws being worldwide change only every 10 years. The OB typically has some minor modification each year.
All the laptops taken by directors to EBU congresses have electronic copies of both White and Orange Books on them and I think that many clubs will find it easier to use it this way(searcnig, for example, being quicker and simpler) if they use a computer for scoring.

[bluejak]

I find the updating principle worrying. Currently it means that no-one seems to have an up-to-date Orange book, as I have discovered recently in Deva BC and the Ranked Masters.

As for every TD at EBU Congresses having Orange and White books on their computer, sadly, this is just not true.

[jeremy69]

Quote

As for every TD at EBU Congresses having Orange and White books on their computer, sadly, this is just not true.

You may be right but that isn't what I said. All the EBU computers that go to congresses have had(as of last week) the new White Book put on them.

[bluejak]

EBU computers are not available to the TDs. I have requested that TDs automatically have access to one, and it is agreed as a good idea, but it is not currently the case. So if a TD wants a computer he cannot use an EBU one.

[gnasher]

It seems to me that the relevant question is not whether the Orange Book is too long or too short, but whether it contains the information that is necessary for it to meet its purpose, and nothing that isn't.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2010-March-22, 03:40

[jeremy69]

Quote

It seems to me that the relevant question is not whether the Orange Book is too long or too short, but whether it contains the information that is necessary for it to meet its purpose, and nothing that isn't.

A very fair point. It is often said when people are criticising the OB that the equivalent fits on to the back of a matchbox in France, Eire or wherever but we have a greater diversity of agreements and quite a lot more regulation. Nonetheless it is my view that it should be possible to effect some slimming down although I confess it was also my view last time and you can see how effective I was then!

[WellSpyder]

jeremy69, on Mar 20 2010, 04:31 PM, said:

No-one wants any club to disaffiliate.

Although you might think this was obvious, I don't actually think it is true! My own club looks like being forced to disaffiliate as a result of not holding sufficiently frequent events to fit the EBU's standard model of what a club should be. We have had discussions with the EBU about the impact of the rules they are laying down, but the overall reaction has been "we don't want clubs like yours in the EBU".

[mjj29]

WellSpyder, on Mar 22 2010, 05:41 AM, said:

jeremy69, on Mar 20 2010, 04:31 PM, said:

No-one wants any club to disaffiliate.

Although you might think this was obvious, I don't actually think it is true! My own club looks like being forced to disaffiliate as a result of not holding sufficiently frequent events to fit the EBU's standard model of what a club should be. We have had discussions with the EBU about the impact of the rules they are laying down, but the overall reaction has been "we don't want clubs like yours in the EBU".

How many events do you hold? We (Cambridge University Bridge Club) have recently fed back to the EBU that having 3 8-week terms, one of which is truncated for the purposes of playing bridge, only have 8+8+5 = 21 sessions of bridge per year (plus two which are decidedly not 'bridge' for the christmas and easter parties). The EBU as far as I know are happy with this, I was assuming we were the club with the fewest sessions per year.

[WellSpyder]

mjj29, on Mar 22 2010, 06:30 AM, said:

How many events do you hold?

We currently hold only the very occasional event - probably less than one a year! The main club activity these days is running teams in the county inter-club competition, as we have for many years.

The EBU is obviously right that this means we do not fit the "standard" model for a bridge club - and the club's existence would not bring in much money directly to the EBU other than the affiliation fee itself since there will not be club events subject to P2P. However, the club entries in the league are subject to fees payable to the EBU, and it is not as if club members are somehow getting away with "untaxed" bridge through the club's existence.

So the EBU will undoubtedly lose money through not allowing the club to affiliate. And club members will play less "taxed" bridge. The only "gainers" will be other clubs playing in the league, if you regard it as a gain to have a competition with fewer competitors and a bigger chance of winning...

[gnasher]

jeremy69, on Mar 22 2010, 11:06 AM, said:

Nonetheless it is my view that it should be possible to effect some slimming down although I confess it was also my view last time and you can see how effective I was then!

Given that it's now only produced in electronic form, it might be sensible to split it into several smaller, more digestible publications: eg:
- Permitted conventions
- Convention cards and alerting
- Interpretation of Laws
- Procedures

[bluejak]

Sadly, there is no doubt that th EBU does not want my club to affiliate either.

I deduce this from an email which said something like:

Quote

No provision will be made for a club such as yours.

Quote

The EBU as far as I know are happy with this, I was assuming we were the club with the fewest sessions per year.

Not even close! My club is not the only EBU club with no sessions of bridge per year.

[bluejak]

jeremy69, on Mar 22 2010, 11:06 AM, said:

Nonetheless it is my view that it should be possible to effect some slimming down although I confess it was also my view last time and you can see how effective I was then!

I have never really understood any of this. Who on earth reads the Orange book? It is a work of reference, like a telephone directory. Of course, if your telephone directory is too big, you could eliminate anyone whose name has more than ten letters, but why?

All over Europe, people have sneered at the size of the Orange book. Then, when they need to know something in their own jurisdiction, they have to do one of the following:

• Ask someone else who might know
  
• Ring up their national federation and ask
  
• Look through various disorganised websites
  
• Guess
  
• Make the answer up

[mjj29]

bluejak, on Mar 22 2010, 08:27 AM, said:

Who on earth reads the Orange book?

I read the orange book. Found some interesting things the second time through I hadn't noticed before (like the alertability of suit rebids after opening a possible canape). I'm also half way through the new White book. Possibly I'm weird.

[bluejak]

Trust me: you are weird!

[jeremy69]

Quote

Trust me: you are weird!

And this coming from someone who is a member of a bridge club with 0 sessions per year!

[campboy]

That's not so strange; I play at a bridge club which has no members (indeed, is constitutionally unable to have members).

Anyway, the EBU's attitude to clubs like bluejak's and Spyder's is appalling.