[mjj29]

jeremy69, on Apr 12 2010, 06:25 AM, said:

Quote

Simply put, the fact that the EDU doesn't want to print and sell the White book shouldn't stop any other individual from doing the same...

Oh yes and how will you manage the copyright problems related to taking someone else's work, printing it without permission and selling it?

I assume the suggestion is that the EBU should release the OB and WB under a suitable licence such that this is possible. Given they aren't selling copies of either it's hardly cutting into their profits...

I see no reason why the EBU should not release it under CC-by-nd[0] or CC-by-nc-nd[1]. Personally I think they should release it under a completely open licence like CC-by-sa[2], but I can see others might be uncomfortable with that.

Matt

0. Redistributable No-Derivatives http://creativecommo...nses/by-nd/3.0/
1. Non-Commercial No-Derivatives http://creativecommo...s/by-nc-nd/3.0/
2. Redistributable/modifiable share-alike http://creativecommo...nses/by-sa/3.0/

[hrothgar]

jeremy69, on Apr 12 2010, 02:25 PM, said:

Quote

Simply put, the fact that the EDU doesn't want to print and sell the White book shouldn't stop any other individual from doing the same...

Oh yes and how will you manage the copyright problems related to taking someone else's work, printing it without permission and selling it?

From what I can tell, the EBU doesn't want to be in the publishing business...

It would be trivial for the organization to release the White Book / Orange Book / whatever using a Creative Commons license and explicitly grant third parties permission to create / sell copies of the book while reserving those rights involving modifying the content.

I tried to convince the ACBL that they should do the same with the Encyclopedia of Bridge. (Use the existing content to seed a bridge related wiki...)

I'd argue that the same should be done with the various World Championship Books. (I'd gladly contribute money to the WBF, Kokish, or whomever owns the copyrights to have these books made available for free online). I'm guessing that the margins would be quite a bit better than trying to make any kind of profit selling small batches of hard copy...

[campboy]

jeremy69, on Apr 12 2010, 12:25 PM, said:

Quote

As I have pointed out before, the comparison is specious.

The fact that you have said it before doesn't make it any more or less valid. You may only look at a software manual when you are next to the screen but that does not mean everyone does.

Did I say people only look at software manuals when they are next to a screen? No, of course I didn't; I have no idea what some people may or may not do (after all, mjj29 has read the Orange Book ). What I said was that the only occasion on which one needs a software manual is when one is at a computer. Some people may prefer to look things up when they are away from the screen (I prefer a hard copy myself, and will use my copy of the OB in preference to the electronic version even if I am only looking something up to quote here), but unless they have chosen a particularly tedious specialist subject for Mastermind they are not going to put that information to use until they get back to the computer, so there is no need.

[dburn]

bluejak, on Apr 11 2010, 04:58 PM, said:

In practice, no-one has an up-to-date Orange book.

I do. I keep it on my mobile phone, so that I don't actually need a computer or a printed copy of the Orange Book when I want to look something up in the Orange Book.

[jeremy69]

Quote

From what I can tell, the EBU doesn't want to be in the publishing business...

Yes it does. It publishes copies of its regulations and commentary on the laws electronically and plans to continue to do so.

Of course people have the right to prefer to keep their copy where they want, be it on their computer, mobile phone, wii or in printed form. If they prefer a printed copy then they print it! In due course no doubt it will make its way onto electronic book readers but there will probably still be those who prefer it on alternative media. The idea of giving the content and copyright to someone to make copies in order to ensure that many have out of date copies seems bonkers to me. That was the problem with the old White Book.
In addition, of course, it will soon become a service open only to affiliated clubs so giving away the copyright to make it easily available to unaffiliated organisations doesn't seem to be a particularly sensible move.

[StevenG]

jeremy69, on Apr 12 2010, 02:06 PM, said:

In addition, of course, it will soon become a service open only to affiliated clubs so giving away the copyright to make it easily available to unaffiliated organisations doesn't seem to be a particularly sensible move.

Does that mean that I, as an individual who is interested in these things, will no longer be able to download copies of these publications for my personal use?

[blackshoe]

If it does, I'll have to start adding to any posts I make here regarding incidents in the EBU:

Quote

Regrettably, I am not privy to EBU regulations, so cannot say what the ruling should be under those regulations.

The Australian Bridge Director's Association has at its web site a forum, one section of which is restricted (for posting) to paid up members. I can't post there, and I'm not going to join ABDA just so I can. Nor will I join the EBU just to get access to the OB.

[mjj29]

jeremy69, on Apr 12 2010, 09:06 AM, said:

Quote

From what I can tell, the EBU doesn't want to be in the publishing business...

Yes it does. It publishes copies of its regulations and commentary on the laws electronically and plans to continue to do so.

Of course people have the right to prefer to keep their copy where they want, be it on their computer, mobile phone, wii or in printed form. If they prefer a printed copy then they print it! In due course no doubt it will make its way onto electronic book readers but there will probably still be those who prefer it on alternative media. The idea of giving the content and copyright to someone to make copies in order to ensure that many have out of date copies seems bonkers to me. That was the problem with the old White Book.

It's not clear to me that the current licencing permits printing copies for your own use or for club use. In general English law does not permit copying for the purposes of format shifting. In fact, I can't see anything which permits you to keep electronic copies other than the implied licensing from "Click here for a fully updated version.".

jeremy69, on Apr 12 2010, 09:06 AM, said:

In addition, of course,  it will soon become a service open only to affiliated clubs so giving away the copyright to make it easily available to unaffiliated organisations doesn't seem to be a particularly sensible move.

I think this would be a seriously bad move. I know the EBU is keen for clubs to affiliate, but there are many people who use the EBU regulations and interpretations as a reference who are not EBU-affiliated, people in other jurisdictions as well as for personal use. The EBU is far more likely to increase it's influence by making these publications as widely available as possible and allowing people to modify their regulations for use else where. A permissive copyright licence seems to be the best way to do that. A copy-left (for those who know the term) licence such as CC-by-sa would be even better.

In addition, you say "we are in the publishing business - publishing electronically", however, the point that was being made is that they aren't making money from publishing (by selling copies), so there should be no objection to other people doing that.

Matt

[jallerton]

jeremy69, on Apr 12 2010, 08:51 AM, said:

Quote

So what is the primary reason for ceasing to print the Orange and White Books?

1. The EBU Board and/or L&EC thinks that these publications are better in electronic form.

2. The EBU Board considers this to be a good way to save money.

3. Other (please specify).

1. Yes because of previously mentioned items such as searching and availability in up to date form
2. Yes. The cost of printing is significant and unlikely to be offset by sales.

Re: 1. An electronic version is certainly useful for searching for specific words, but a paper version is more useful for reading about particular topics, particularly if you happen to be at a bridge venue, as most TDs tend to be when asked to give a ruling.

Re: 2. How much did it actually cost the EBU to print the last White Book? How much does that work out to be per copy?

[gnasher]

jallerton, on Apr 12 2010, 10:53 PM, said:

Re: 2. How much did it actually cost the EBU to print the last White Book? How much does that work out to be per copy?

It seems to me that another relevant question is "How much would it cost someone to print their own copy from the electronic version?"

[jeremy69]

Quote

Does that mean that I, as an individual who is interested in these things, will no longer be able to download copies of these publications for my personal use?

If you are a member of the EBU then yes. If you are not then no.

Quote

I think this would be a seriously bad move. I know the EBU is keen for clubs to affiliate, but there are many people who use the EBU regulations and interpretations as a reference who are not EBU-affiliated, people in other jurisdictions as well as for personal use. The EBU is far more likely to increase it's influence by making these publications as widely available as possible and allowing people to modify their regulations for use else where.

Yes the EBU are keen for clubs to affiliate. for them to do so they must perceive advantages for themselves and/or their members. You can't have it both ways. If an organisation is to be able to fund the production of something like the White Book which takes a long time to prepare and produce it needs resources to do so. The members pay for those resources. To then give away the content to those who choose not to contribute but to allow others to do so is neither fair nor good business IMO. If another NBO asked for a copy, however, then it would be given willingly.

[hrothgar]

jeremy69, on Apr 14 2010, 12:39 AM, said:

If an organisation is to be able to fund the production of something like the White Book which takes a long time to prepare and produce it needs resources to do so. The members pay for those resources. To then give away the content to those who choose not to contribute but to allow others to do so is neither fair nor good business IMO. If another NBO asked for a copy, however, then it would be given willingly.

Goods characterized by a high fixed cost and a low, or even zero, variable cost, have always presented problems for market economies.

Set price equal to marginal cost is definitional for efficient asset allocation in a competitive market. This would suggest that the price for downloaded copy of the White Book should be set at zero, since the incremental cost of producing / distributing an additional unit is an infinitesimal.

At the same time, this type of pricing scheme creates a "free rider" problem. Significant numbers of people will choose to consume the good in question without contributing towards the fixed of production. In turn, this means that the society will invest in fewer of these projects than it would otherwise.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Personally, I prefer models in which groups of consumers band together, fund the fixed cost of development, and then distribute the asset for free. This is an increasingly popular method to fund content that gets distributed on the internet. Its used by everyone from National Public Radio to "The Guild".

I would argue that membership organizations which, in theory, are trying to promote bridge have a vested interest in distributing content for free.

[mjj29]

hrothgar, on Apr 13 2010, 05:37 PM, said:

I would argue that membership organizations which, in theory, are trying to promote bridge have a vested interest in distributing content for free.

I concur and I think it is an example that the EBU should set.

Jeremy, if your suggestion does represent EBU plans, who should I contact to make an official request on the matter?

Matt

[jeremy69]

Quote

Jeremy, if your suggestion does represent EBU plans, who should I contact to make an official request on the matter?

An official request for what? If you mean giving content away for free you are welcome to try but I guess you will be banging your head against a brick wall.
You could contact the General Manager.
It will take a while I guess but steadily content will be moved so it is accessible to all members and clubs only. This has been discussed for a while prior to P2P as you might imagine. Of course anyone who plays at a club which is unaffiliated and can't easily join any other way can choose to be come a direct member for approximately the same price as previously. That will give access.

Bottom line though is that whilst people can argue or pontificate on economic theory to their hearts content, assert that it should all be free, property is theft etc some content will only be available to those who contribute and are members. The same applies to playing in a congress. You want to play then you join. You won't join then you can't.

Quote

This would suggest that the price for downloaded copy of the White Book should be set at zero,

It is always provided you join the organisation.

[bluejak]

It will be sad if after all these years of encouraging people in other countries to use the White book they are unable to solely to stop people in unaffiliated clubs getting hold of a copy, when we know perfectly well that the number of people in unaffiliated clubs who want an EBU White book is roughly zero.

Yes, I know you said they would accede to a request from an NBO, but I am talking people, not organisations.

[jnichols]

So, coming from the USA, If I want to visit a club in your jurisdiction and would like to aquaint myself with your regulations before I come I won't be able to? Instead I should just be surprised at what is and is not alertable? Seems a bit unfriendly to me.

[blackshoe]

I've already expressed my opinion of this scheme.

[Vampyr]

I hope that Jeremy is expressing his personal opinions and not the views of the board as a whole. Surely even the EBU would not do something so foolish and pointless.

[jeremy69]

Quote

It will be sad if after all these years of encouraging people in other countries to use the White book they are unable to solely to stop people in unaffiliated clubs getting hold of a copy, when we know perfectly well that the number of people in unaffiliated clubs who want an EBU White book is roughly zero.

I would expect another NBO to be able to licence the book if they wished to do so. If an official from another country wanted to see it persuade his country to use it adopt the idea then I am sure the EBU would be helpful.

Quote

So, coming from the USA, If I want to visit a club in your jurisdiction and would like to aquaint myself with your regulations before I come I won't be able to? Instead I should just be surprised at what is and is not alertable? Seems a bit unfriendly to me.

If you want to visit a club then you will need to be aware that it decides what the regulations are in its jurisdiction and the Orange Book is not binding. However if you want something for your inflight reading then I am sure it can be arranged!

Quote

I hope that Jeremy is expressing his personal opinions and not the views of the board as a whole. Surely even the EBU would not do something so foolish and pointless.

Not a personal view, no. Some resources will move behind a password protected area of the website in the next few months. You may think it foolish and pointless to protect the investment of members and to direct scarce resources to those who contribute but I can't say I agree with you and I don't think the Board does either.
When clubs affiliate they have access to resources some of which may be printed and others not. They have these because they are members. Is it foolish or pointless to only send the magazine to members? How about giving advice to clubs and individuals who ask? If a resource is scarce or valuable then it seems normal to me to protect it.

[mjj29]

jeremy69, on Apr 14 2010, 03:27 AM, said:

When clubs affiliate they have access to resources some of which may be printed and others not. They have these because they are members. Is it foolish or pointless to only send the magazine to members? How about giving advice to clubs and individuals who ask? If a resource is scarce or valuable then it seems normal to me to protect it.

You are grouping a number of very different things together. The magazine you are printing and has a non-zero marginal cost. Obviously sending hard-copy to non-members is not sensible - you are losing money on the printing. It is also a very different publication from the white and orange books. It is (we hope) something which is interesting to read which adds significant value to ones EBU membership.

The orange and white books, on the other hand, are just statements of your regulations and interpretations of law, which you must make available regardless of who affiliates, and which add significant value to the community as a whole by being freely available.

The EBU is not a corporation beholden to providing shareholders with more money - it's an institution whose aim is the furtherance of bridge. In the same way that the EBU spends money to encourage youth bridge and teaching of bridge, this is a service which the EBU should provide to bridge as a whole.

I shall write to the General Manager to express my views.

Matt