[Free]

655321, on 2010-December-14, 02:32, said:

Agree with rogerclee, disagree with others.

If I also agree with rogerclee, then you just created a paradox! That's very dangerous you know.

Luckily I disagree 3♠ unless that's preemptive.

[mike gill]

I would bid 2♠. I'm finding it hard to construct hands without the hK where partner passes 2♠ and game is good (I guess KQJT xx AQxx xxx, but partner's spade quality is really important because of overruffs, and the dK could be off). Meanwhile I'm finding it very easy to construct normal takeout doubles where game is just silly (Kxx xx AKTx QJxx).

[ArtK78]

To me, an obvious 2♠ call. Before I read the responses to the opening post, I thought that this would have been an LOL. Obviously not.

I would expect a hand like this for a 2♠ bid opposite a takeout double. Given the dreck that passes for takeout doubles today, this is a normal 2♠ response.

[mtvesuvius]

Originally I rotated the hand for ease of presentation. I was extremely unhappy with my bidding on this hand, but still considered it to be a problem... Anyway, West has the QJx♠, and East has everything else... So 4♠ was down 1.

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[wank]

well, it rather looks like you would have made 4S from the north side then unless east leads his singleton trump.

wrong-siding it by cue-ing 2H was rather predictable. you've got 5 spades - i wouldn't think you needed a dialogue to select the strain.

personally i think 2♠ is an underbid. I'd bid 3 or 4, though to be fair, I don't play the same style of take-out doubles espoused on here.

[Phil]

Decent red game at IMPs (especially from North) with the opening bid but notice there isn't a lot wasted, and we have a nine card fit.

[rduran1216]

Phil, on 2010-December-13, 23:00, said:

2♠.

Restart discussions about the American vs European versions interpretations of 3♠ please. Even if I played 3♠ to be 5 spades + an invite, I can't believe this is the right hand for it.

Can you build a hand for partner that you don't like your chances in 4S? I tried and failed without constructing an awful takeout hand.

Will partner raise you or even make a try with

QJxx
x
AJxx
Kxxx

Guess Adam beat me to it by posting the actual hand haha. Well as mentioned, its still a good game, and assuming u start by cashing a high spade from P hand and catching a stiff J or Q, which seems at least a little likely, then u avoid the spade loser.

[Phil]

rduran1216, on 2010-December-17, 19:14, said:

Can you build a hand for partner that you don't like your chances in 4S? I tried and failed without constructing an awful takeout hand.

OK I'm timing myself....

Kxx xx Axxx AJxx

That took 20 seconds. Yeah I can come up with some hands where game is good, but in most cases partner is moving over 2♠.

[rduran1216]

Phil, on 2010-December-17, 20:44, said:

OK I'm timing myself....

Kxx xx Axxx AJxx

That took 20 seconds. Yeah I can come up with some hands where game is good, but in most cases partner is moving over 2♠.

Well I'm old fashioned, so take a diamond away and replace with a spade. Still not good, but I'd say this hand will make 4S most of the time in this set up.

[gnasher]

rduran1216, on 2010-December-17, 19:14, said:

Will partner raise you or even make a try with

QJxx
x
AJxx
Kxxx

He probably should do. If you would make a takeout double on QJxx xx AJx Kxxx or QJxx xxx AJx KQx, you have to bid more when you're dealt a traditional takeout double.

[rduran1216]

gnasher, on 2010-December-18, 04:54, said:

He probably should do. If you would make a takeout double on QJxx xx AJx Kxxx or QJxx xxx AJx KQx, you have to bid more when you're dealt a traditional takeout double.

.

Right so this becomes an agreement thing. I would never EVER make a takeout dbl with the last one, and if partner is unpassed I'm not doubling with the first either. Makes hand evaluating a bit easier, and u just have to use judgement when balancing. Playing OBAR keeps us from being in trouble. So if it goes 1H p 2H partner is expected to bid 2S with that hand, and now I can raise after.

[tolvyrj]

2S is obvious i think. We dont yet know much bout pards hand. He/She may be keeping bidding alive with some sort of 3 suiter or he/she may have some strong hand with or without spades; too good for just an overcall on first round. Its true that our hand cant be much better for 2S bid, but it aint too strong for it either. If there is something else to do in this hand prd will keep on bidding; and there is bonus possibility that opps will keep on bidding they H...slurppp:)

[Fluffy]

I think people bidding 2♠ on a style where it is allowed to have 5 cards are underbidding, because the 4th heart is very powerful card.

If partner happens to have 4 spades and we can avoid overruffs, even if partner has 2 hearts it will be very similar to having a 7222 shape opposite 12-14 balanced with 2 spades. And that kind of hand makes game with much less than 24 HCP combined.

Maybe those are too many ifs, but there is also the possible bonus of a stiff heart in partners hand.

[the_dude]

I think both 2♠ and 4♠ are fine, depending on how aggressive your takeout doubles are. 3♠ as anything but preemptive makes no sense to me. How many invitational bids do you need?

I mean .. assuming 2♠ is 9-11ish, and you are going to bid 4♠ with any opening hand (or 2♥ with a good hand but 4card suit) .. then when would you ever want to bid 3♠?

Unless of course you have a bad hand with six spades and want to jam the auction.

[Gerben42]

2♥ then 3♠ would have shown the hand I think. Bidding 4♠ over 2 would show a perfect hand like:

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