[kgr]

(Asked in another topic, but probably better to have a separate topic for this question).
I think it is standard that after opps run from a penalty DBL then all later DBL's are penalty.
But should it always apply?:
(2♥)-Pass-(3NT)-DBL
(Pass)-Pass-(4♥)-DBL??

(1♥)-DBL-(1♠)-DBL
(Pass)-Pass-(2♥)-DBL??

Both examples are opps that are bidding their fit after first psyching. Any other situations were penalty after penalty doesn't make sense?


EDIT: And an example that is less clear:
(1NT-weak)-DBL Pen-(2♣ Nat)-DBL??
Is DBL Penalty?

[whereagles]

Case 1 you clearly want dbl to be for take out.

Case 2 you probably want dbl to be cards.

Case 3 it depends on agreements. You can either define it as penalties or take out.

[mycroft]

In case 3, it is important to know how far 1NT-X forces the doubling side, and, of course, what 2C means (yes, I know natural, but could it include "any 4333" or my scramble runout (ostensibly natural, and we will 100% play 2C undoubled (we may play 2Cx, too, if we think we have a 7+fit). Denies any other unilateral place to play, though, and could be 4=4=4=1)).

[nigel_k]

I'm not sure there is any such rule. I prefer the following:

1. The first double of a suit is for takeout
2. If we double one suit for takeout and they bid another suit, double is penalty

So none of the examples are penalty doubles (except the double of 1♠ on hand 2)

[Siegmund]

It is standard that if the opponents appear to have more than one possible strain to play in, you only double them for penalty if you expect to be able to inflict a similar-sized set if they run to their other playable spot.

The question here is whether you believe that these are auctions where you expect that for the opponents. After 2H-P-3NT presumably we either are preventing hearts from running, or we "knew" that responder had a long minor and we have that stopped. I think the rule does apply here - sort of - inasmuch as we'll be very surprised to see 4H make, though it's certainly possible we will get only 100 or 300 against 4HX instead of making game our way if 3NT was a psych.

In the latter auction, we essentially never expect 1SX to be the final contract, whether responder psyched or not, so I don't think the usual "after a penalty double" rules apply at all.

[Gerben42]

Let's look at the easy ones first:

#2. Cards - the double of 1♠ wasn't penalty, it just showed exactly four ♠ (with five you bid 2♠). So the second double shows a good hand in light of the previous bidding. Partner won't expect you to have a trump stack for this.

#3. A matter of agreement but for me 100% take out - again the first double wasn't penalty, it showed values. I play the XXX-convention in such cases: When the first X or XX shows values, the second one is T/O and the third is penalty.

Now what about #1? There is something to be said that if you double 3NT, you expect 4♥ to fail too. Let's look at a perfect hand:

---

You can easily identify 3NT as a psyche with a ♥ fit. With such a hand, you shouldn't try to double 3NT but bid 4♥ as T/O, because you know that if you double 3NT, 4♥ will follow and you are committed to bidding over that.

The conclusion must be that doubling 3NT and doubling again shows a big balanced hand with defense, which also means something in trumps. You expect partner to pass except with an unusual distribution. With a typical T/O hand which is strong enough to bid T/O over 4♥, don't bother trying to catch them, that's what opponents are hoping you to do.

[gnasher]

I don't think we've made any penalty doubles yet. In my world, we've shown a takeout double of hearts on the first one, and a 1♠ bid (or more) on the second.

On the first one, when advancer left in the double he said he wanted to defend. I think that creates a forcing pass, so opener's double just says "OK - let's defend".

[kgr]

Gerben42, on 2010-December-30, 04:29, said:

Now what about #1? There is something to be said that if you double 3NT, you expect 4♥ to fail too. Let's look at a perfect hand:

---

You can easily identify 3NT as a psyche with a ♥ fit. With such a hand, you shouldn't try to double 3NT but bid 4♥ as T/O, because you know that if you double 3NT, 4♥ will follow and you are committed to bidding over that.

(2H)-Pass-(3NT)-4H: If my partner bids 4H then I would think that it is Leaping Michaels and not take-out of Hearts.

[kgr]

Thanks all for the answers.
For #3: It is better to call the first DBL as showing values and not real penalty. Therefor the next DBL is still take-out.
=> Another one: 4th hand converted the DBL to penalty by his pass. Do you now play his last DBL as take-out or penalty?:
(1NT weak)-DBL Values-(Pass:forcing a RDBL)-Pas
(RDBL)-Pass-(2C:C and a higher)-DBL??
For #1 and #2: You can also say that the DBL's are not really penalty, but rather values showing. Or better: A DBL after a penalty DBL is only penalty if opps don't reveal a psych by running to partners suit?

[kenberg]

The first case:
(2♥)-Pass-(3NT)-DBL
(Pass)-Pass-(4♥)-DBL??

Gerben gives a perfect hand, but we live in an imperfect world. Suppose, in fourth position, I hold
KQJ9
A2
A54
K873


It is not impossible that 3NT makes, it is not impossible that 4H makes. Still, I doubt either is making and it is reasonable to think rho is playing with my head. It seems to me I either double 3NT and then also double 4♥, or I pass. I can't see doubling 3NT and letting 4♥ get played undoubled. If I double, what should partner do over 4♥ X? I can well imagine hands where both 4♥ and 4♠ fail.

Had the bidding gone 2♥-pass-4♥ the problem seems similar. I imagine I double.

Pre-empts create problems of course.