[gdawg01]

Hi all!

I had a few questions about rebids with minimum hands in 2/1.

1)Assume you have a 12 point opener and 5 spades with 5=3=3=2 / 5=3=2=3 / 5=2=4=2 / 5=2=2=4 shape, and partner bids a forcing NT. Especially in the last two cases where we have a 4 card minor, is it correct to choose 2m as the rebid or to rebid the spades (even though we have only 5)?

2) Again, assume a 12 point opener with the above shapes, but now partner bids 2H. What does 2N by us show? 3 of a minor? Are either of these reids associated with extras in opener's hand or is our primary rebid just showing shape?

Thanks for the responses!

Girish

[matmat]

gdawg01, on 2011-January-14, 13:39, said:

1)Assume you have a 12 point opener and 5 spades with 5=3=3=2 / 5=3=2=3 / 5=2=4=2 / 5=2=2=4 shape, and partner bids a forcing NT. Especially in the last two cases where we have a 4 card minor, is it correct to choose 2m as the rebid or to rebid the spades (even though we have only 5)?

In 2/1 context a rebid of the original suit after 1NT response shows 6+. With a lower ranking 4 card suit you pattern out, bidding that suit (this applies also when the second suit is ♥ after a ♠ opening). The other shapes are somewhat problematic and the solution is something you should discuss with your partner; I have seen people argue for both bidding the longer minor, or simply a catch-all 2♣. I tend to rebid ♣ unless I have a singleton in the suit, which is possible with some other shapes after a ♥ opening:
4=5=1=3, 4=5=3=1, 4=5=2=2
On the first two I show the 3 card minor, on the last you're stuck and a club rebid is typically chosen.

The flip-side of this is that responder needs to be aware of the pressure put on opener and needs to show false preference for the major with a doubleton there and 3/4 cards in the suit that was rebid, if that was a minor.

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2) Again, assume a 12 point opener with the above shapes, but now partner bids 2H. What does 2N by us show? 3 of a minor? Are either of these reids associated with extras in opener's hand or is our primary rebid just showing shape?

3m tends to show extra playing strength, so either 54 with extra strength, or compensating shape. IMO a min hcp hand can be okay here so long as the suits are pure.

there are at least a couple of ways of playing 2N that I am aware of. One is to treat it as the catch-all bid in which case the 2♠ call shows a sixth card, the other is to use 2♠ and 2N as showing roughly the same strength, but 2N implying a hand more suitable to a NT contract, whether that means stoppers in one or two of the side suits, or simply a balanced hand, that's for you and p to discuss.

[babalu1997]

a. the forcing no trump convention allows responder to be sing or void in your major, and he may be seeking a better fit so you have to bid a 3 card or even 2 card minor if you must, when holding only 5 spades. to rebid 2 spades after a forcing no trump shows 6 -- and a little hope in the event you play opposite a singlton or void.

b. you have to pass any new suit bid by responder after your first rebid, but you may continue the bidding if thr responder returns to your major.

*******************

2 heartas over 1 sapdes hows 5, so you can support holding 3

i bid 2nt when i have all unbid suits stopped, i hate the contract, but you are allowed to rebid a 5 card spade suit opposite a heart 2/1.

[losercover]

Using a standard 1NT opener, I can't see any meaning for a 2NT call over 2H. 2H to us would be a 5 card suit and less than 10 HCP. Anything stronger, including playing strength, we would use check back stayman.

We play 19-21 HCP 1NT, so 2NT over 2H would show 15-16 HCP. With 17-18, We would raise the 1NT to 2NT.

[wank]

losercover, on 2011-January-14, 15:33, said:

Using a standard 1NT opener, I can't see any meaning for a 2NT call over 2H. 2H to us would be a 5 card suit and less than 10 HCP. Anything stronger, including playing strength, we would use check back stayman.

We play 19-21 HCP 1NT, so 2NT over 2H would show 15-16 HCP. With 17-18, We would raise the 1NT to 2NT.

eh? you're responding to a question about 2/1. whatever your response means, the subject matter isn't the same.

[HeartA]

rebid 2♠ with 5-card defeats the purpose of forcing 1NT. Keep in mind that partner most likely doesn't have a strong hand, and 2 or less cards of ♠.

[awm]

When there's a substantial chance partner will pass your rebid (as in 1♠-1N-2♠ or perhaps 1♦-1♠-2♦) you generally want to avoid rebidding five-card suits. The issue is that when partner has real support he will go back to your suit anyway.. but by rebidding you encourage partner to pass on a lot of hands with singleton (usually quite awful) and cut down on your chance to find a nice fit in some other suit. Thus after 1M-1NT (forcing) you should bid your longest side suit; not rebid a five-card suit.

Things are different when your rebid is not going to end the auction. For example 1♠-2♥-2♠ will never be passed (2♥ was GF remember); another example is 1♣-1♠-2♥-2♠ where after opener's reverse most would play 2♠ as forcing. In this type of sequence, it is fine to rebid a five-card suit when your other potential calls are more expensive. This saves space for partner to describe, and helps limit your strength and shape. It's common to play that rebidding a suit in a forcing auction guarantees only five cards, and is a typical "waiting bid" when holding a minimum where more descriptive calls would raise the level. This means 1♠-2♥-2NT can show a "real" notrump hand, and 1♠-2♥-3m can show extras (because unsuitable minimums can rebid 2♠).

[Lurpoa]

gdawg01, on 2011-January-14, 13:39, said:

Hi all!

I had a few questions about rebids with minimum hands in 2/1.

1)Assume you have a 12 point opener and 5 spades with 5=3=3=2 / 5=3=2=3 / 5=2=4=2 / 5=2=2=4 shape, and partner bids a forcing NT. Especially in the last two cases where we have a 4 card minor, is it correct to choose 2m as the rebid or to rebid the spades (even though we have only 5)?

2) Again, assume a 12 point opener with the above shapes, but now partner bids 2H. What does 2N by us show? 3 of a minor? Are either of these reids associated with extras in opener's hand or is our primary rebid just showing shape?

Thanks for the responses!

Girish

1. 1NT is NOT forcing, it is semi forcing (limited to at most a game-invitational hand). But indeed it can hide a 3card spades. So with another 4card it is always best to rebid that 4card. Repeating your ♠ would indicate a six-card, (and rather weak)
2. 2♥ shows a 5card and is game forcing. A rebid of 2NT shows a regular hand: 5card ♠, can have only 1♥, maybe 2, so might have a 4card minor, but indeed tends to be 5=2=3=3.

[matmat]

Lurpoa, on 2011-January-15, 16:32, said:

1. 1NT is NOT forcing, it is semi forcing (limited to at most a game-invitational hand). But indeed it can hide a 3card spades. So with another 4card it is always best to rebid that 4card. Repeating your ♠ would indicate a six-card, (and rather weak)

The original poster states that 1NT is forcing. That you play a style of 2/1 where 1nt is semi-forcing is irrelevant to the problem stated, though, obviously, not an invalid way of playing things, just different. Rebidding 2♠ does not necessarily indicate you are "rather weak." You could easily have a 15 count or a bad 16 count.

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2. 2♥ shows a 5card and is game forcing. A rebid of 2NT shows a regular hand: 5card ♠, can have only 1♥, maybe 2, so might have a 4card minor, but indeed tends to be 5=2=3=3.

Could also be 52(24) with a positional stopper or half stopper in the short minor.

[gdawg01]

Thanks for the detailed responses, Mat and Adam. Very useful.

A couple more questions :
1) Is it better to play 1C - 1N as semi-forcing? Frequently after responder denies a four card major with the 1N, opener will be stuck rebidding clubs (they will almost always have 5 because with 4-4 in the minors and a minimum hand, opener would usually open 1D), so is it better for that 1N to be semi-forcing?

2) Given we bid 1N (15-17) with 5 card majors, consider again the auction 1S - 2H - 2N. 2N should show a 18-19 point balanced hand with stoppers in unbid suits, right? I say this since with a minimum opener, I could always rebid the 5 card spade suit in this auction.

3) After the auction 1S - 1N, what is 2N by opener typically? What would a direct 3N be? I remember Roger saying something about this to me a long time back on BBO chat but unfortunately have lost all memory of it.

Thanks!

[matmat]

gdawg01, on 2011-January-15, 17:16, said:

1) Is it better to play 1C - 1N as semi-forcing? Frequently after responder denies a four card major with the 1N, opener will be stuck rebidding clubs (they will almost always have 5 because with 4-4 in the minors and a minimum hand, opener would usually open 1D), so is it better for that 1N to be semi-forcing?

In a 2/1 context 1C-1NT is non-forcing (as is 1D-1NT). The point range over 1C is 8-10 or so, with responder asked to find a different (presumably 1d) call with fewer than 8, 1d-1n is the more typical 6-10. It's not without merit for opener to rebid 2C after 1D-1NT when holding 44 or 53 in the minors, since responder's 1N response virtually guarantees a minor fit, though that decision really should be made looking at your major suit quality, form of scoring, etc.

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2) Given we bid 1N (15-17) with 5 card majors, consider again the auction 1S - 2H - 2N. 2N should show a 18-19 point balanced hand with stoppers in unbid suits, right? I say this since with a minimum opener, I could always rebid the 5 card spade suit in this auction.

This really should be a partnership decision. I think a common treatment is to have 2S and 2N show the same point range, just hands that are more suited to suit or no-trump play (what do the side suits look like? is the hand balanced or two suited? etc.)
Another option is for 2♠ to show 6+ and then 2NT is the catch-all rebid with any hand with no extras, balanced or not.
I have not given much thought to 2N showing 18-19, and 2S being the catchall, though that is not my preference. I don't have a good sense as to how playable that would be, I feel that given the choice i would rather have the option of clearly showing a sixth card in the major than immediately showing hcp extras -- since we are already forced to game by the 2H call I can easily do that later (by going over 3nt, for instance).

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3) After the auction 1S - 1N, what is 2N by opener typically? What would a direct 3N be? I remember Roger saying something about this to me a long time back on BBO chat but unfortunately have lost all memory of it.

The standard treatment, I believe, is for 2N here to show the playing strength between your 1N and 2N openers. This might include some hands with six spades that fall in the 15-17 range that you felt too good to just open 1nt, but the suit isn't good enough to justify a 3♠ rebid.
The 3N rebid typically shows a source of tricks in spades (6+, either ready to run or one loser, or so) and a generally good hand, it's similar to the auction 1m-1apple;3nt -- showing a running minor with a good opening hand with useful cards in the non-m, non-apple suits.

[awm]

The forcing notrump convention only applies after a major-suit opening. Neither 1♣-1NT nor 1♦-1NT is forcing.

One can make various agreements about 1♠-2♥-2NT. Playing that it shows extras (i.e. 18-19) is reasonable but not necessary. I think a lot of people will rebid 2NT there with a 12-14 hand provided they have holdings in both minors that suggest declaring notrump (i.e. AQxxx xx KJx Kxx).

I believe the "expert standard" agreement is that 1M-1NT-2NT shows 18-19 balanced and 1M-1NT-3NT shows a semi-balanced hand with a strong six-card major and extras. The issue that comes up is sometimes you have a maximum 1♠ opening (say 19-20 hcp) with for example 6322 shape after 1♠-1NT. You are too strong to rebid 3♠ (which is not forcing). You could rebid 4♠, but it's often easy to imagine this being a lousy contract (say partner has singleton for example). You could "make up" a 3m bid on doubleton, but again it's easy to see how this could be bad. Thus people use 3NT to show this hand (i.e. six spades, enough for game, no four-card side suit to jump shift into).

I've seen people rebid 3NT on a "good balanced 19" and the like, but you could/should either open 2NT or rebid 2NT on these hands.

[Lurpoa]

matmat, on 2011-January-15, 16:51, said:

The original poster states that 1NT is forcing. That you play a style of 2/1 where 1nt is semi-forcing is irrelevant to the problem stated, though, obviously, not an invalid way of playing things, just different. Rebidding 2♠ does not necessarily indicate you are "rather weak." You could easily have a 15 count or a bad 16 count.



Could also be 52(24) with a positional stopper or half stopper in the short minor.

On ONE: Yes, indeed I play BWS2001defaults.

On TWO: Indeed, again, playing BWS2001, 2NT can hide a 4card minor, because, bidding them at the 3level would show something more than a minimum hand. So 2NT can be based upon 5=1-4-3

[P_Marlowe]

#1 2m - at least, if you happen to have a 4 card minor.
Most would also bid 2m with a 3 carder, to gurantee a 6 carder with 2S,
with 3-3 in the minors they would respond 2C, ..., you can also req., that
2D showes 4, than you have to bid sometimes 2C on a doubleton.

#2 some play 2S as catch all, some, and 2NT as either 12-14 or 18-19, some play
3m as showing add. values. some dont req. add. values.
I prefer to play 2S as catch all, i.e. 2S could also be bid with a 5 carder,
and 3m as showing add. strength.

In general - ask yourself, if you like, that opener rebidding his major to be a 6
carder, if you do than most followes from that.

With kind regards
Marlowe