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Bidding after major-suit reverse

#1 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 04:34


Playing 2/1 we missed a slam yesterday after the above start to the auction. 3♦ promised values and was game forcing, but the concern was the meaning of 3♥.

Did the opener hold:
or


Responder held


Of course slam is not that great on a trump lead (and needs pretty friendly spades on a club lead) but you'd prefer to be in hearts and the bidding could be the same when partner holds ♠Jx.

As it happened South bid 3NT and we played there.

Any thoughts on how we could do better?
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#2 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 04:55

opener can bid 3♠ to temporise. 3♥ should show a serious suit.
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#3 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 05:03

I think opener should bid 3N or 4D with 4522. I don't like either 3M bid to be ambiguous. A corrolary of this is that responder should not bid 3D if he has a good club holding.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#4 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 07:06

View Postgwnn, on 2011-January-17, 05:03, said:

I think opener should bid 3N or 4D with 4522. I don't like either 3M bid to be ambiguous. A corrolary of this is that responder should not bid 3D if he has a good club holding.

I agree with this.
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#5 User is offline   Ant590 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 11:38

Yeah, another "agree with gwnn" post - I like both majors to show extra cards here.
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#6 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 11:53

If you open 1♠ with 5♠ 6♥ this is easy. But anyway, 3♦ shows a 6 card suit, 4522 has to raise witha d oubleton honnor in partner's suit.

3♦ is the wrong bid, I'd bid 3♥ with that hand.


EDIT: 3♥ is the right bid if 1NT denied support, playing 2/1 where 2NT is natural 3♦ is the right bid.
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#7 User is offline   dboxley 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 12:03

View Postpaulg, on 2011-January-17, 04:34, said:


Playing 2/1 we missed a slam yesterday after the above start to the auction. 3♦ promised values and was game forcing, but the concern was the meaning of 3♥.

Did the opener hold:
or


Responder held


Of course slam is not that great on a trump lead (and needs pretty friendly spades on a club lead) but you'd prefer to be in hearts and the bidding could be the same when partner holds ♠Jx.

As it happened South bid 3NT and we played there.

Any thoughts on how we could do better?

What's the 3D bid all about? That should show about 6-8 and a good 6 bagger in diamonds. Isn't 2NT forcing? I certainly wouldn't want to play a system where it could be passed. Now you would get to 4H on the 1st hand and 3NT on the 2nd.
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#8 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 12:09

oh and I don't like 3♦ on that.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#9 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 15:42

Given that we're playing Lebensohl, 3♦ seems normal. How else will we get to the right contract opposite AKQx AKxxx QJx x?

Over 3♦, maybe 4♣ should be an FSF-like choice of games? Then we can bid 4♣ with the 4522 hand, 4♦ with a 4531, 3♥ with 4-6, and 3♠ with 5-6.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#10 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2011-January-18, 02:20

Hi,

I dont think, that 3H showes a 6-4 hand, so both hands you gave for opener
are possible.
The main issue is, what 3D precisly showed, could it be still a normal 1NT
response (max.), or did reponder show a (semi)-bal. 10-12 count.
If responder showed a (semi-)bal. 10-12 count, than opener knowes, he has
a fit.

After 3H from opener, I think, 3NT is normal, responder has a good club stopper,
and if he showes some tolerance for hearts with 3H, than you may end up in 4H
in a 5-2 fit, with 3NT being right.

If you play Lebensohl, than it may be possible to use the seq. 2NT followed by
3S as a way to differentiate between the various shape variants.

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Marlowe
With kind regards
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#11 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2011-January-18, 04:01

I don't know Andy. How will we reach 3NT opposite

AKJx
AKJxx
x
xxx

?
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#12 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-January-18, 04:41

View Postgwnn, on 2011-January-18, 04:01, said:

I don't know Andy. How will we reach 3NT opposite

AKJx
AKJxx
x
xxx

?

Opener might bid 3NT over 3♦. That would be a silly contract opposite xxx Qx AKxxxx xx, but that's almost a one-suited invitation, which (depending on the pair's other methods) might not respond 1NT.

What do 2NT-3♣-3♠ and 2NT-3♣-3NT mean? Maybe they could be used to show something like the OP's 2254 hand, one shoing clubs and the other showing diamonds.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#13 User is online   Cascade 

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Posted 2011-January-18, 04:44

View Postwank, on 2011-January-17, 04:55, said:

opener can bid 3♠ to temporise. 3♥ should show a serious suit.


This is seriously flawed. (Well at least without firm discussion.) 3♠ is what I would bid to show a 5=6 hand.
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#14 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2011-January-18, 06:07

Yes that was a silly example hand. Anyway if they play invitational jump shifts, it's a completely different problem, since that's basically what my 3♦ would show. I haven't thought of the auction completely, all I know is that I don't like dilly dallying about stoppers with ambiguous 3M bids. 4♣ should be either a very good raise of diamonds or a 4sf ish bid, and I prefer the 4sf ish bid, so perhaps it's good to bid 3D on 5 after all. I'm confused.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#15 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-January-18, 10:04

View Postgwnn, on 2011-January-18, 06:07, said:

Yes that was a silly example hand.

I didn't think so.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#16 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2011-January-18, 11:45

Responder's 3♦ does not promise a club stop, but it will have at least 2 cards there (3262) and very likely 3 or more.

At this stage where shape/strength are already well-defined, stoppers start to have some importance, so I wouldn't mind 3♥ to be used as a temporizing bid without club stop. Lacking that stop, the bid will usually show either 6 hearts or good ones.
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