[TWO4BRIDGE]

1♠ is either real or artificial.... and always GF.

This is my reasoning ( correct me if I'm wrong ):

If Responder has 4 ( or more ) ♦ AND a 4 card Major
( either ♥ or ♠ or both ), he will bid:

- - 1D first with opening values himself ( ie GF ) or
- - otherwise will bid 1-Major first with less than GF values, even with longer ♦

Then, if the auction continues: 1C - 1D - 1H - 1S! , it follows that Responder's 1♠! is either :

- - natural ( and GF )
- - or artificial ( and GF )

with the spade holding and strength to be sorted out on the next rounds of bidding .

The point is that after the 1♠ rebid by Responder,
Opener just makes his most descriptive bid
-- NO NEED to JUMP....since you are in a GF.

[ I can show some follow-ups later if there is an interest ] .

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

One reason to NOT use the following ( somewhat ) popular 2S!-jump as an artificial GF: 1C - 1D - 1H - 2S! jump ( which specifically denies 4 cards ♠)
is that if Responder's real intent was to show a GF with ♣ support, he may not be able to show his ♣ support until the 4-level ! !
The 2S!-jump just takes up too much valuable space when looking for the best strain below 3NT.

[Cascade]

Some bid suits up-the-line.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 Cascade, on 2011-April-23, 15:16, said:

Some bid suits up-the-line.

Bidding "up-the-line" is for folks "who still bid like ... Auntie Gladys " .

The treatment I use for Responder's first bid is not novel .

[ggwhiz]

I play that 1♠ here is a natural 1 round force and 2♠ is the artificial game force but denies 4 spades.

Since I had already bid 1♠ instead of 1♦ on most little hands (except for REALLY bad spades) this one is a 90% game force too in practice.

I don't see anything wrong with getting the spade length defined when the 1 spade bid as natural promises at least 5 diamonds, usually 6.

[MrAce]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-April-23, 14:57, said:

1♠ is either real or artificial.... and always GF.

This is my reasoning ( correct me if I'm wrong ):

If Responder has 4 ( or more ) ♦ AND a 4 card Major
( either ♥ or ♠ or both ), he will bid:

- - 1D first with opening values himself ( ie GF ) or
- - otherwise will bid 1-Major first with less than GF values, even with longer ♦

Then, if the auction continues: 1C - 1D - 1H - 1S! , it follows that Responder's 1♠! is either :

- - natural ( and GF )
- - or artificial ( and GF )

with the spade holding and strength to be sorted out on the next rounds of bidding .

The point is that after the 1♠ rebid by Responder,
Opener just makes his most descriptive bid
-- NO NEED to JUMP....since you are in a GF.

[ I can show some follow-ups later if there is an interest ] .

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

One reason to NOT use the following ( somewhat ) popular 2S!-jump as an artificial GF: 1C - 1D - 1H - 2S! jump ( which specifically denies 4 cards ♠)
is that if Responder's real intent was to show a GF with ♣ support, he may not be able to show his ♣ support until the 4-level ! !
The 2S!-jump just takes up too much valuable space when looking for the best strain below 3NT.

For the similar reasons you stated, i made a topic in the past about this very same auction. My proposal was to use 1♠ as GF and relay that asks and scans openers hand.For slam/gslam hands. This will be fairly easy especially opener's 1M bid warranths an unbalanced hand. This also allows responder to use picture bids with all other bids which can be defined by pdship agreements.

Also;

1♣--1♦
1♥--2♥

Imo this must be a GF ♥ raise, since responder would start with 1♥ if he had less than GF values. And no need for 4th suit or xyz 2♦ relay first toset the major trump. The counter argument could be that this shows 4 small ♥ + 6 ♦ and wanted to start with 1♦, however the frequency will be very rare and the benefits of using other way outweighs this hand. If playing XYZ, it covers that type of 6-4 hands anyway, unless opener rebids his ♣ suit.

Same goes for

1♣--1♦
1♠--2♠

You can use relays after this, ask/show stiffs, voids, number of controls, key cards or whatever of your choice, since you just skipped all the headache bids like 4th suit or xyz to just show a ♥ fit and a GF hand and you are only at 2 level (with xyz u are most likely will show at 3 level, and with 4th suit forcing if opener rebids 1♠ u will still show it at 3 level. You can use 3♥ by responder as game invitations (or vice versa 2♥ inv and 3♥ GF+) IF u are not using XYZ which actually covers invitation hands. If you use XYZ, then you now also have space for some very specific picture hands with ♥ support.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 MrAce, on 2011-April-24, 04:28, said:

For the similar reasons you stated, i made a topic in the past about this very same auction. My proposal was to use 1♠ as GF and relay that asks and scans openers hand.For slam/gslam hands. This will be fairly easy especially opener's 1M bid warranths an unbalanced hand. This also allows responder to use picture bids with all other bids which can be defined by pdship agreements.

Also;

1♣--1♦
1♥--2♥

Imo this must be a GF ♥ raise, since responder would start with 1♥ if he had less than GF values. And no need for 4th suit or xyz 2♦ relay first toset the major trump. The counter argument could be that this shows 4 small ♥ + 6 ♦ and wanted to start with 1♦, however the frequency will be very rare and the benefits of using other way outweighs this hand. If playing XYZ, it covers that type of 6-4 hands anyway, unless opener rebids his ♣ suit.

Same goes for

1♣--1♦
1♠--2♠

You can use relays after this, ask/show stiffs, voids, number of controls, key cards or whatever of your choice, since you just skipped all the headache bids like 4th suit or xyz to just show a ♥ fit and a GF hand and you are only at 2 level (with xyz u are most likely will show at 3 level, and with 4th suit forcing if opener rebids 1♠ u will still show it at 3 level. You can use 3♥ by responder as game invitations (or vice versa 2♥ inv and 3♥ GF+) IF u are not using XYZ which actually covers invitation hands. If you use XYZ, then you now also have space for some very specific picture hands with ♥ support.

Very interesting.
I'd be interested in looking at your past thread ( ... sorry I missed it ).

And, I agree with you, and I wish I had thought about the following auctions being GF :
1♣ - 1♦
1M - 2M!

[jillybean]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-April-23, 16:37, said:

Bidding "up-the-line" is for folks "who still bid like ... Auntie Gladys " .

The treatment I use for Responder's first bid is not novel .

I hope Auntie Gladys whips your ass.

[Lurpoa]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-April-23, 14:57, said:

1♠ is either real or artificial.... and always GF.

This is my reasoning ( correct me if I'm wrong ):

If Responder has 4 ( or more ) ♦ AND a 4 card Major
( either ♥ or ♠ or both ), he will bid:

- - 1D first with opening values himself ( ie GF ) or
- - otherwise will bid 1-Major first with less than GF values, even with longer ♦

Then, if the auction continues: 1C - 1D - 1H - 1S! , it follows that Responder's 1♠! is either :

- - natural ( and GF )
- - or artificial ( and GF )

with the spade holding and strength to be sorted out on the next rounds of bidding .

The point is that after the 1♠ rebid by Responder,
Opener just makes his most descriptive bid
-- NO NEED to JUMP....since you are in a GF.

[ I can show some follow-ups later if there is an interest ] .

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

One reason to NOT use the following ( somewhat ) popular 2S!-jump as an artificial GF: 1C - 1D - 1H - 2S! jump ( which specifically denies 4 cards ♠)
is that if Responder's real intent was to show a GF with ♣ support, he may not be able to show his ♣ support until the 4-level ! !
The 2S!-jump just takes up too much valuable space when looking for the best strain below 3NT.

Yes, if you decided to play 4th suit forcing, you need to agree on this sequence with your partner.

[Cascade]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-April-23, 16:37, said:

Bidding "up-the-line" is for folks "who still bid like ... Auntie Gladys " .

The treatment I use for Responder's first bid is not novel .

It is not universal either.

[helene_t]

If we play Walsh we can't have a spade fit here unless responder has GF (or at least invitational, depending on style) values. So under those conditions, I agree with TWO4Bridge.

If we do not play Walsh, opener's hand is quite ill-described so having the space consuming 2♠ bid as the only forcing bid for hands without four spades strikes me as unplayable.

In the Netherlands some play 1♠ as either natural (6+ points) or FSF. I don't think that is playable. Opener would have to rebid 3♠ with a 15-16 4414 or 4405, and if responder then has a hand that wants to play a minor suit slam it becomes awkward.

So I think that if you play strict up-the-line you have to play XYZ. Alternatively, play 1NT, 2♣ and 2♦ at responder's second turn as natural limit bid which also promise four spades, and let all the hands without four spades go through 1♠ which becomes a lightweight FSF.

[mike777]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-April-23, 14:57, said:

1♠ is either real or artificial.... and always GF.

This is my reasoning ( correct me if I'm wrong ):

If Responder has 4 ( or more ) ♦ AND a 4 card Major
( either ♥ or ♠ or both ), he will bid:

- - 1D first with opening values himself ( ie GF ) or
- - otherwise will bid 1-Major first with less than GF values, even with longer ♦

Then, if the auction continues: 1C - 1D - 1H - 1S! , it follows that Responder's 1♠! is either :

- - natural ( and GF )
- - or artificial ( and GF )

with the spade holding and strength to be sorted out on the next rounds of bidding .

The point is that after the 1♠ rebid by Responder,
Opener just makes his most descriptive bid
-- NO NEED to JUMP....since you are in a GF.

[ I can show some follow-ups later if there is an interest ] .

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

One reason to NOT use the following ( somewhat ) popular 2S!-jump as an artificial GF: 1C - 1D - 1H - 2S! jump ( which specifically denies 4 cards ♠)
is that if Responder's real intent was to show a GF with ♣ support, he may not be able to show his ♣ support until the 4-level ! !
The 2S!-jump just takes up too much valuable space when looking for the best strain below 3NT.

fwiw I play Walsh and XYZ and for me this shows 5d and 4s and gf. With 4d and 4s and gf or less I would start with 1s. So 1s here is always natural and never artificial. btw opener has shown 5c and 4h.

With xyz:

1c=1d=1h=2d becomes art and gf/cb.

1c=1d=1h=2c forces 2d and then pass or invite.

[MrAce]

Quote

Very interesting.
I'd be interested in looking at your past thread ( ... sorry I missed it ).

And, I agree with you, and I wish I had thought about the following auctions being GF :
1♣ - 1♦
1M - 2M!

Here is how it goes the way i set it;

1♣-1♦
1♥(5-4)-1♠(GF relay)
1NT= 2425 or 1435 or 3415 or 0445 or 4405 minimum and max hands, 2♣ relay asks and opener goes thru 2♦ to start telling these hands for min (11-14), goes thru 2♥ for max (16-17) 15 hcps can be up or downgraded. Responder relays..
2♣= 6-4 and 6-5 hands minimum, 2♦ relay asks, 2♥=2416 2♠=1426 2NT=3406 3♣=0436 3♦=1516 3♥=2506 ♠=0526
2♦= just like above for maximum 2♥ asks and all steps ends b4 or at 3 nt level.
2♥=7-4 hands, 2♠ asks, 2 NT 1417 3♣=2407 3♦=0427
2♠=1507
2NT=0517

etc etc You may have to discuss with pd which bid asks rkcb or controls and from which suit. It is pretty easy when u have an agreement but can be a total mess if u dont. Some may argue that this auction doesnt come up very often, which i agree. However when pd opens 1♣ and u have a lot of hcps and balanced hand,u dont have to wait to hold 4♦ and u can always start 1♦, even with a 5 or 6 card major, why bother to show it when u can ask and scan your pd's entire shape and strength and then decide what to play ?

It is important to not get into more relays when not interested in slam. No need to give info to opps for just game hands

Do i sound like i love artificial systems ?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Thx, MrAce ...
You and Zelandakh are made for each other as partners ...

[TWO4BRIDGE]

One important follow-up ( as proposed by the National champion who suggested using the 1♠!  4th suit GF sequence in the first place instead of the 2♠-jump):
1♣ - 1♦
1♥ - 1♠!
2♠* - ?? If Responder now bids ANYTHING OTHER than 3♠, then the 1♠! bid was artificial!
________________________________________
* 2S = 4 4 0 5 or 4 4 1 4

[aguahombre]

 mike777, on 2011-April-24, 14:18, said:

fwiw I play Walsh and XYZ and for me this shows 5d and 4s and gf. With 4d and 4s and gf or less I would start with 1s. So 1s here is always natural and never artificial. btw opener has shown 5c and 4h.

Does that mean opener, with 4-4-1-4 and about 17 would have rebid 1S, not 1H? True, in Walsh style, the 1M rebid promises an unbalanced hand, but it would seem more space-conserving to have 1S rebid by opener guarantee 4-5+in the blacks, and for 1H to be either longer clubs or 4-4-1-4.

Then, if responder had 4-5 in her two suits (spades and diamonds) and G.F., she can rebid the cheap 1S; and no further gadgets would be necessary ---just natural establishment of strain at the two-level and peaceful exploration for slam.

[mike777]

 aguahombre, on 2011-April-26, 09:04, said:

Does that mean opener, with 4-4-1-4 and about 17 would have rebid 1S, not 1H? True, in Walsh style, the 1M rebid promises an unbalanced hand, but it would seem more space-conserving to have 1S rebid by opener guarantee 4-5+in the blacks, and for 1H to be either longer clubs or 4-4-1-4.

Then, if responder had 4-5 in her two suits (spades and diamonds) and G.F., she can rebid the cheap 1S; and no further gadgets would be necessary ---just natural establishment of strain at the two-level and peaceful exploration for slam.

ya opener with 4=4=1=4 and 17 in first or second seat we need to open 1c and over 1d either rebid 1h or rebid 2nt which is exactly 17 for us. In third or 4th seat our options are open 1nt `15-17 or 1c and then 1h over 1d.

My guess is we will rebid 2nt with 17 often in first and second seat.

[Hanoi5]

So, what would you do with:

♠32
♥J32
♦AK432
♣K92

After 1♣-1♦-1♥-?

[JLOGIC]

 Hanoi5, on 2011-April-26, 12:20, said:

So, what would you do with:

♠32
♥J32
♦AK432
♣K92

After 1♣-1♦-1♥-?

I'd probably bid 3C and hope for the best. Partner will have 5 clubs unless he's 4414. 2H might be reasonable at matchpoints.

Edit: Sorry I didn't read the thread and see that people are saying 2H would be a GF heart raise. I don't agree with that, I think it should just be a 3 card raise. 2H seems like a sensible bid to me with xxx KQx Axxxx xx, we are too strong to pass and I'd rather partner play 2H than me playing 1N, and if partner is strong enough to bid again and we can get to 3N, it might be a disaster for me to have bid it first.

Surely there are enough other bids for a GF heart raise that 2H doesn't need to show that.

[mike777]

 Hanoi5, on 2011-April-26, 12:20, said:

So, what would you do with:

♠32
♥J32
♦AK432
♣K92

After 1♣-1♦-1♥-?

I think my options are:
1nt(up to 11 hcp)

2c(xyz) then 2h(invite)Note only showing 3h. I cant have 4h playing Walsh(gf)

2c(xyz) then 3c(invite)


3c(weakish)

I think I would pick 2c xyz forcing 2d then 2h(invitational). Note only showing 3h, I cannot have 4h on this auction.

[FrancesHinden]

Before I started playing transfer responses, we used to play

1C - 1D
1H - 2S

as specifically a 3-card club raise, invitational or better. This is handy opposite the possible 4414 shape, and also simplified the FSF auctions.

p.s. if you are playing 1S as FSF (which I used to do) I don't see the need to play it as game forcing. You seem to leave responder with an unbiddable hand when he is, say, 3352 without a spade stop.