[blackshoe]

---

Agree with the bidding so far? How should the bidding go from here, assuming EW are both passing from now on?

[han]

This seems really easy so maybe I'm missing something.

1C - (1S) - 2D
2S - 3D
4D - 4H
4NT - 5S
5NT - 6H
7NT

[Phil]

Agree with Han.

[ArtK78]

I would say that you were missing something (unless I am missing something )

When did North show a sixth diamond in this auction? Doesn't the 3♦ bid say nothing more than "I don't have anything more to say?"

Wouldn't your auction have been identical if the two hands were:

---

Admittedly, 7NT may still make - there are various ways in which you could make 4 club tricks on this layout. But this does not make 7NT a great contract.

[han]

I would bid 3H with that hand. It doesn't make sense to me to rebid 3D on a 5-card suit.

[blackshoe]

It may be partner and I who missed something. :-)

We have different memories of how the table auction went. I'm pretty certain it went

1♣-(1♠)-2♦-(P);
2NT-3♦; (opps silent now)
3NT-AP

I'm pretty sure 3♦ was an underbid, and passing 3NT was probably a mistake. Not sure if 2NT is right or wrong. Pretty sure 3NT is wrong.

Partner is equally certain it went

1♣-(1♠)-2♦-P;
3NT-AP

I would have been puzzled (as I am now) as to what 3NT might mean*, and I don't recall being puzzled by that at the table, so I think partner is confusing this with another hand.

On the auction as I thought it went, I figured partner for a balanced 12-14. I'm probably still worth another try (4♦?) but I didn't take it.

*I would think major suit stoppers and a running club suit, not a balanced hand, but we haven't discussed this kind of auction, and partner clearly wasn't on that wavelength.

Comments?

Added: we got 8 of 12 MPs for 3NT making seven. One pair bid 6NT and made 7, another pair went down 2 in some contract. 3 pairs were in 5♦ making 7, everybody else was in 3NT (or possibly 4NT I suppose) making 5 (1 pair) or 7.

[Flameous]

Han, do you always double with 4♥, even if GF? Cause if you don't I'd assume 3♥ to show a real suit.

Blackshoe, 2NT rebid seems rather impossible as I assume it's not even forcing in this sequence. 2♠ and 3NT seem to be the only real options.
After 3NT the sequence should at least be easy cause after 4♦ slam try, opener can just keycard and find out everything.

[aguahombre]

han, on 2011-May-05, 11:32, said:

This seems really easy so maybe I'm missing something.

1C - (1S) - 2D
2S - 3D
4D - 4H
4NT - 5S
5NT - 6H
7NT

This is perfect given the OP's "nothing fancy". Ours would work out the same, since 2D is already GF for us. Thus,

1c(1S)2d
2S----3d (six of them)
4D*---5C 4D is Wood, because opener can't really imagine a G.F. by pard without a heart control (will pay off if overcall was on XXXXX).
5H* 6H (king ask, and answer)
7N counting tricks.

[Quantumcat]

There's no harm in always doubling with four hearts. You will always get another bid to express the strength of your hand and whatever other suits it contains. Then 3♥ can just be a bid saying "I'm don't have anything to add, except I have most/all of my values in diamonds and hearts"

[whereagles]

Han, what's 6♥?

[Hanoi5]

whereagles, on 2011-May-06, 05:20, said:

Han, what's 6♥?

Specific Kings

[aguahombre]

Quantumcat, on 2011-May-05, 23:14, said:

There's no harm in always doubling with four hearts. You will always get another bid to express the strength of your hand and whatever other suits it contains. Then 3♥ can just be a bid saying "I'm don't have anything to add, except I have most/all of my values in diamonds and hearts"

It is similar to responding 1H to 1m with 4 in hearts, G.F values and longer in the other minor. You can never recover to show relative lengths by the time you have shown the strength.

[mike777]

blackshoe, on 2011-May-05, 20:28, said:

It may be partner and I who missed something. :-)

We have different memories of how the table auction went. I'm pretty certain it went

1♣-(1♠)-2♦-(P);
2NT-3♦; (opps silent now)
3NT-AP

I'm pretty sure 3♦ was an underbid, and passing 3NT was probably a mistake. Not sure if 2NT is right or wrong. Pretty sure 3NT is wrong.

Partner is equally certain it went

1♣-(1♠)-2♦-P;
3NT-AP

I would have been puzzled (as I am now) as to what 3NT might mean*, and I don't recall being puzzled by that at the table, so I think partner is confusing this with another hand.

On the auction as I thought it went, I figured partner for a balanced 12-14. I'm probably still worth another try (4♦?) but I didn't take it.

*I would think major suit stoppers and a running club suit, not a balanced hand, but we haven't discussed this kind of auction, and partner clearly wasn't on that wavelength.

Comments?


Added: we got 8 of 12 MPs for 3NT making seven. One pair bid 6NT and made 7, another pair went down 2 in some contract. 3 pairs were in 5♦ making 7, everybody else was in 3NT (or possibly 4NT I suppose) making 5 (1 pair) or 7.

fwiw I thought 2nt was terrible here...you show 11-13


easy 2s and 4d over 3d etc....

[han]

Hanoi5, on 2011-May-06, 19:46, said:

Specific Kings

Specifically, the heart king.

[han]

Flameous, on 2011-May-05, 21:42, said:

Han, do you always double with 4♥, even if GF? Cause if you don't I'd assume 3♥ to show a real suit.

No I don't always double with 4 hearts, so yes, I think opener will expect 4 hearts. This does not mean it is the wrong bid, but perhaps 3S is better.

Quantumcat, on 2011-May-05, 23:14, said:

There's no harm in always doubling with four hearts

I strongly disagree with this. Especially with a good 6=card diamond suit (and a strong enough hand) I would bid 2D first. If the opponents raise to 4S for example, I'd be happy to have shown my 6-card diamond suit and strentgth instead of my 4-card heart suit and nothing about strength.

[blackshoe]

han, on 2011-May-05, 11:32, said:

This seems really easy so maybe I'm missing something.

1C - (1S) - 2D
2S - 3D
4D - 4H
4NT - 5S
5NT - 6H
7NT

Han, let's see if I understand this auction: 2S is forcing (to game?), 3D shows a sixth diamond, 4D shows a fit and extras (otherwise bid 5D), 4H is a control bid, and then we're into RCKB and specific kings. Have I got it right?

[FrancesHinden]

Flameous, on 2011-May-05, 21:42, said:

Han, do you always double with 4♥, even if GF? Cause if you don't I'd assume 3♥ to show a real suit.

Blackshoe, 2NT rebid seems rather impossible as I assume it's not even forcing in this sequence. 2♠ and 3NT seem to be the only real options.
After 3NT the sequence should at least be easy cause after 4♦ slam try, opener can just keycard and find out everything.

While it's quite possible that responder has a 'real' heart suit, opener has denied one by not bidding 2H over 2D, so responder is fairly safe calling the hand a 2=4=5=2 as that is the closest to what he has on the sample 3=3=5=2.

[blackshoe]

Flameous was responding to the original 2=3=6=2 hand, I believe. Certainly that's the hand I posted. The 3=3=5=2 was Art's.

As I understand 2/1 (and I may be wrong) in an uncontested auction, 1X-2Y-2NT, 2NT shows a balanced hand of either 12-14 or 18-19 HCP. Is this auction (1♣-(1♠)-2♦-(P)-2NT not similar? Not identical, I realize, because 2♦ is not GF, but if that means 2NT is just 12-14, then 3NT must show 18-19, and I didn't think it did. Partner, OTOH, apparently did if she did indeed bid 3NT over 2♦.

[tolvyrj]

I can easily believe that bidding went for u part; 1♣ - (1♠)-2 ♦- pass - 3NT. After all opener has 18 hcp. balanced hand with a stopper in ♠.
After that responder shld bid 4♦ and depending to the methods u use end up in slam; small or grand ♦ or Nt remains to see.
That the opener would bid 2♠ for her next round sounds peculiar, she has a natural and descriptive bid available, which gives her prd possibility to enter into the bidding sequence. And how can 3♦ over 2♠ mean that responder has 6 ♦ in her hand.
Dont know; bidding is always easier when u c both hands.

[aguahombre]

blackshoe, on 2011-May-10, 20:53, said:

Flameous was responding to the original 2=3=6=2 hand, I believe. Certainly that's the hand I posted. The 3=3=5=2 was Art's.

As I understand 2/1 (and I may be wrong) in an uncontested auction, 1X-2Y-2NT, 2NT shows a balanced hand of either 12-14 or 18-19 HCP. Is this auction (1♣-(1♠)-2♦-(P)-2NT not similar? Not identical, I realize, because 2♦ is not GF, but if that means 2NT is just 12-14, then 3NT must show 18-19, and I didn't think it did. Partner, OTOH, apparently did if she did indeed bid 3NT over 2♦.

1C-(1M)2D
? If 2NT is either 12-14 or 18-19, 2D itself better have been game forcing, or you would be in some silly partscore with 19-opposite 10. Also, in your structure 3NT has no natural meaning, since 15-17 would have started with 1NT.

All this means that the jump to 3NT after 2/1, competition or not, is 18-19. For the majority whose 2m in competition is not game forcing, the NT rebids become awkward.