[JLOGIC]

X promising both majors is unplayable

[Quantumcat]

Starts off as showing both majors, but as long as you have a meaningful rebid anything is possible - almost any invite-plus hand without a long suit of their own can double.

Since you are all talking about transfers, I'll share what I play.

From overcalls of 1♠ to 2♥, total Switch:

X = first unbid suit
first unbid suit = second unbid suit
second unbid suit = non-forcing takeout
first unbid suit at a higher level = forcing takeout
second unbid suit at a higher level = first unbid suit but super offensive (don't want X getting passed out)
Notrumps = natural
Our suit = natural
Their suit = Cue-raise

The advantage of the double showing a suit is that you get to penalise the opponent's overcalls more often. Instead of it having to be one person with a shortage and the other with a trump stack (unlikely once they've opened a different suit!), it can just be the opponents having a seven card fit with 4-2 trump split, and opener is short in responder's suit. That's it.

From 2♠ upwards, semi-Switch:
X = Takeout
First unbid suit = second unbid suit
Second unbid suit = first unbid suit
Notrumps = natural
Our suit = natural
their suit = Cue-raise

For interferences of double, 1NT, 1♦ or 1♥ we have various things depending on the opening.

[Zelandakh]

Quantumcat, on 2011-August-21, 01:50, said:

From overcalls of 1♠ to 2♥, total Switch:

X = first unbid suit
first unbid suit = second unbid suit
second unbid suit = non-forcing takeout
first unbid suit at a higher level = forcing takeout
second unbid suit at a higher level = first unbid suit but super offensive (don't want X getting passed out)
Notrumps = natural
Our suit = natural
Their suit = Cue-raise

So, if I may...
1D - (2C)
=========
X = hearts
2D = nat
2H = spades
2S = NF t/o
2N = nat
3C = good raise
3D = weak raise
3H = forcing t/o
3S = offensive hand with hearts

Is this right?

[fromageGB]

JLOGIC, on 2011-August-21, 01:49, said:

X promising both majors is unplayable

It certainly is playable, but you may wait a lifetime for it to happen ! And on all the other hands you can regret the lost opportunities.

[whereagles]

X = majs is perhaps not the ideal, but certainly playable. You have a couple of plans available:

0-6 pass
7-9 and one 4 card major: pass
7-9 and 4-3 majors: dbl + pass min bid
7-9 and 5 card major: dbl + pull to your major
10+ and one 4 card major or 4/3: dbl + pull to 2NT/diamonds if pard doesn't bid your maj
10+ and 5 card major: bid 2M

[awm]

As far as I'm concerned, it shows one of the following:

(1) If less than invitational values, then it shows at least 4-3 in the majors (preferably at least 4-4). When only 4-3, there is a tendency to have "takeout double" shape (i.e. 4342 is fine but 4324 would pass).

(2) Holding invitational or better values, it shows at least one four-card major. Here the plan is to bid notrump or correct to diamonds if partner picks the "wrong" major, protected somewhat by the overall values.

[aguahombre]

awm, on 2011-August-21, 10:58, said:

When only 4-3, there is a tendency to have "takeout double" shape (i.e. 4342 is fine.

Could prove interesting opposite 3-3-4-3. Maybe they will take us out of our 3-3 heart fit and pard can then show four diamonds after passing 2H. But without invitational strength he probably can't bid 3D directly if the 2C overcaller is the one who bids again.

[Quantumcat]

Zelandakh, on 2011-August-21, 03:04, said:

So, if I may...
1D - (2C)
=========
X = hearts
2D = nat
2H = spades
2S = NF t/o
2N = nat
3C = good raise
3D = weak raise
3H = forcing t/o
3S = offensive hand with hearts

Is this right?

Yup that's right.

aguahombre, on 2011-August-21, 11:39, said:

Could prove interesting opposite 3-3-4-3. Maybe they will take us out of our 3-3 heart fit and pard can then show four diamonds after passing 2H. But without invitational strength he probably can't bid 3D directly if the 2C overcaller is the one who bids again.

With a 3-3-4-3 11-14 count you'd have to choose between rebidding diamonds or bidding 2NT. Responder should remember not to double with a weak hand with both majors and long clubs and short diamonds (but opener will likely have a reopening double if responder has long clubs so he doesn't need to worry about it getting passed out when he has such a hand).

[han]

gwnn, on 2011-August-19, 02:31, said:

Han was proposing something like

x=4+♥, f
2d=4+♠, f
2♥=5+♥, nf
2♠=5+♠, nf

but maybe it was a little different.

No, double shows spades, 2D shows hearts and denies spades. What you wrote doesn't work so well. For example, after the double, if opener has a 3-4-4-2 distribution he can bid 2H as responder would also double with 4-4 in the majors. You can't do that if double shows hearts.

I'll vote for "4+ spades" in the poll as it is what I play (although I don't see it as "taleout", it just shows 4+ spades), but I am not sure what Phil was looking for in this poll. Of course "standard" is at least one major.

[Vampyr]

Lurpoa, on 2011-August-19, 03:41, said:

Best thing is to agree with your partner.[/size][/font]

Uh, yeah... all of the treatments discussed here assume having an agreement with partner. Was this not obvious?

[Zelandakh]

han, on 2011-August-24, 13:28, said:

No, double shows spades, 2D shows hearts and denies spades. What you wrote doesn't work so well. For example, after the double, if opener has a 3-4-4-2 distribution he can bid 2H as responder would also double with 4-4 in the majors. You can't do that if double shows hearts.

I am not sure I really understand this han. If Responder bids 2D = spades with 4-4 majors why can Opener not bid 2H with 3442 shape?

[mgoetze]

Zelandakh, on 2011-August-25, 03:24, said:

I am not sure I really understand this han. If Responder bids 2D = spades with 4-4 majors

han, on 2011-August-24, 13:28, said:

2D shows hearts and denies spades.

Hope that clears it up.

[Zelandakh]

Sorry, perhaps I was not clear. Han wrote that the scheme where double shows hearts and 2D shows spades does not work so well because you then cannot stop in hearts with both majors. This is true if you double (showing hearts) with both majors but if you choose to bid 2D (showing spades) with this distribution then it seems that it works just as well as double showing spades. I suspect I might be missing something here.

[Lurpoa]

Vampyr, on 2011-August-24, 15:38, said:

Uh, yeah... all of the treatments discussed here assume having an agreement with partner. Was this not obvious?

Good !
what is your agreement ?

[han]

Zelandakh, on 2011-August-25, 05:53, said:

Sorry, perhaps I was not clear. Han wrote that the scheme where double shows hearts and 2D shows spades does not work so well because you then cannot stop in hearts with both majors. This is true if you double (showing hearts) with both majors but if you choose to bid 2D (showing spades) with this distribution then it seems that it works just as well as double showing spades. I suspect I might be missing something here.

Sorry, I didn't see your question earlier.

I think you are missing that 2D is NF and can't be made with GF hands. We can double with any strength. Therefore if only call may be made with both majors, it has to be the double. The main reason we play this structure is that we want to specify our major suit holdings as quickly as possible.

There are more reasons why one would like to play it this way. If you have both majors, it is often more convenient to show spades and maybe hearts than hearts and maybe spades.

[han]

Oh by the way, the structure we play is different from what gwnn wrote in other ways as well. 2M is forcing. We play that 3M is natural with 7-9 points and 3C is GF with exactly 4 hearts (but not 4 spades). I have never played negative freebids here.

[gwnn]

Strange. My memory plays tricks on me.

So did you make the red suit lengths of 2♦ more defined? 4+H, 0+ diamonds, NF still seems like an unsound definition to me, how do you cope with this loose definition?

[xxhong]

I actually like this one:
x: 4+ H, 8+ HCPs.
2D: natural.
2H: 4+ S, 8+ HCPs.
2S: transfer to NT, either inv or mild slam invitation.
2N: limit raise or better D raise.
3C: constructive D raise with 5D.
3D: 6+H, inv or better.
3H: 6+S, inv or better.
3S: transfer to 3NT.
3N: RKC in D.

Phil, on 2011-August-17, 08:52, said:

See poll. Thanks

[han]

gwnn, on 2011-August-31, 13:57, said:

So did you make the red suit lengths of 2♦ more defined? 4+H, 0+ diamonds, NF still seems like an unsound definition to me, how do you cope with this loose definition?

2H is natural and forcing, 3C is GF with exactly 4 hearts and 3H is about 7-9 with good 6+ hearts. So typically we have 4-5 hearts for 2D. We deny 4 spades, so unless we are 3505 (!) we will have diamonds, usually 2-4.

[cherdano]

Han, is 2NT an artificial raise? And 2♦ can be up to invitational when you have exactly 4 hearts?

Very interesting.