[jillybean]

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MP's, your bid please add comments too

by agreement, 3♣ does not show any extra's

[hrothgar]

jillybean, on 2011-September-29, 12:24, said:

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MP's, your bid please add comments too

by agreement, 3♣ does not show any extra's

This would be a much easier question if this were IMPs.

Even though this is MP, I think that I'm going to bid 4♣ and investigate a club slam

[nigel_k]

If 3♣ showed extras I would bid 4♣, but at matchpoints I think it is too risky to bypass 3NT so will bid 3♦.

[kenrexford]

If I held sufficient strength for a clear slam move and diamond control, RKCB. Ideally 4♦ Kickback, but 4NT if that's what you play.

With either insufficient strength to commit or a lack of a diamond control, or both, I have a problem. Style is key here.

My thinking is that 3♦ sounds like a notrump probe and thus sounds like a lack of diamond cards. I like to be consistent. Thus...

3♦...4♣ = slam interest without a diamond control
4♣ direct, slam interest with a diamond control, insufficient strength to commit (4NT possible final contract if 4♦ is then Kickback RKCB).

You could reverse this if this is your style.

You may notice that strength is not defined as to the 3♦...4♣ sequence, in that Responder might have a bunch or just a little. In that event, I like to play that 4♦ by Opener would NOT be kickback but rather "Last Train," a cue of diamonds showing that control but insufficient strenght to commit. With control AND sufficient strength, the cheapest out-of-focus major is the substitute RKCB. That might get complicated. With regular 4NT as RKCB, though, this works fine, as 4♦ is not a problem bid.

So, using 4NT as RKCB:

4NT = diamond control plus sufficient strength
4♣ = diamond control, needs help
3♦...4♣ = needs diamond control (partner bids 4NT with it and extras, 4♦ with it but no extras).

Using Kickback:

4NT = diamond control plus sufficient strength
4♣ = diamond control, needs help
3♦...4♣ = needs control (4♦ has it but no extras; 4♥/♠ = has it RKCB)

[rogerclee]

4C

[TWO4BRIDGE]

jillybean, on 2011-September-29, 12:24, said:

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MP's, your bid please add comments too

by agreement, 3♣ does not show any extra's

4C now.... 4D then becomes kickback by partner when suit agreement is on the 4-level.

If he by-passes 4D ( because of a lack of a Diam Ctrl ) and cues 4H or 4S instead, you will sign-off in 5C.

[ggwhiz]

I bid 3♦ just to keep the options open and delay the pain keeping the mirage of 3nt in play. I don't even know if I want to play there if pard bids it!

I suspect this hand belongs in 5♣ (which if it's the right spot the hand should be barred at matchpoints) and the 4♣ bidders are headed there as well.

[jillybean]

If you bid 3♦ partner bids 3N

[P_Marlowe]

3D, FSF - what else?

Unless it is not FSF, in which case you will have to bid 3H.

And if p bids 3NT over 3D, I will pass, I dont have add. values.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Phil]

4♣. If I had to make one bid now it would be 6♣.

Its important to understand that 3♣ shows extras.

[ggwhiz]

jillybean, on 2011-September-29, 23:56, said:

If you bid 3♦ partner bids 3N

That should usually show a stiff ♥ so I'm on my way to 5♣ bidding 4♣ along the way as a mild slam try. Partner has not shown extra's in your style but hasn't denied them (shape wise) either.

3nt seems likely to be just in at best.

[aguahombre]

jillybean, on 2011-September-29, 12:24, said:

by agreement, 3♣ does not show any extra's

Phil, on 2011-September-30, 09:26, said:

Its important to understand that 3♣ showsshould show extras.

Is that what you meant, Phil? If so, I agree regardless of whether the system is 2/1 or STD.

But, with OP conditions, I think we have to bid 4C anyway.

[Phil]

aguahombre, on 2011-September-30, 10:20, said:

Is that what you meant, Phil? If so, I agree regardless of whether the system is 2/1 or STD.

But, with OP conditions, I think we have to bid 4C anyway.

Even if JB is playing standard (snipe removed by self-moderator), 3♣ shows extras since its a high reverse.

Only in Hardy does 3♣ not show extras.

[aguahombre]

Phil, on 2011-September-30, 10:35, said:

Only in Hardy does 3♣ not show extras.

There are a few passages in the Hardy texts where he implies that high reverses after 2/1 do show extras. One can be found on pg 20 of the orange book refering to example "c" on the previous page:

(after 1S-2H) "opener is not strong enough to rebid 3D".

[jillybean]

Phil, on 2011-September-30, 10:35, said:

Even if JB is playing standard (snipe removed by self-moderator), 3♣ shows extras since its a high reverse.

Only in Hardy does 3♣ not show extras.

I play that 3♣ shows extras. When the hand was given to me I asked, 3♣ shows extras? and the answer was "no, it shows shape", so I included that as one of the conditions of the question. So snipe all you like, I dislike the approach too.

[rogerclee]

I hope this hand makes it obvious why playing 3C doesn't show extras in a non-precision context is very poor.

[jillybean]

The full hand

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South can rescue the auction by bidding 3♦ rather than 4♣.

My auction would have been 1♠:2♥:2♠:3♣:3N

[aguahombre]

jillybean, on 2011-October-01, 10:39, said:

The full hand

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South can rescue the auction by bidding 3♦ rather than 4♣.

My auction would have been 1♠:2♥:2♠:3♣:3N

Your auction would have been reasonable.

It is often the case that a player can rescue the auction from partner's ill-conceived bid by making another ill-conceived bid. Two wrongs sometimes work out right. But I never know when to do that, so frequently just play the role of "straight man" in the comedy routine.

[TheoKole]

3 ♦, 4th suit if partner bids 3 NT I would bid 4 ♣ which should clearly be a slam try in ♣, why would you go above game if you did not want to investigate a slam?

4 NT by partner should be a clear sign off at this point, which I would expect with QJx. If partner cue bids 4 ♦ I will cue bid 4 ♥, if he cue bids 4 ♥, I will sign off in 6 ♣.

Good luck,

Theo

[ahydra]

Agree with Theo - seems sensible. Also agree with your auction to 3NT. 5C isn't a complete disaster on the actual hand - just unlucky there's a ghastly spade break and a diamond ruff.

ahydra