[aguahombre]

the hog, on 2012-January-17, 21:51, said:

It may be to make, but the player may be happy to 6 or 7 off. Obviously if this sort of bid is a frequent occurence, I would expect it to be alerted. I regard the op in the same vein.

I would not expect it to be alerted or alertable. Even if it is a frequent occurence, the opening 3m bidder is not invited to participate further in the auction. Even if they agree that it might happen, or agree that 3NT is a good idea, I don't believe that is what "agreement" means in the laws.

I don't even believe the 3m bidder is obligated to disclose how often partner has done this with no values ---merely that partner believes bidding 3NT is a good idea.

[Vampyr]

Phil, on 2012-January-17, 21:09, said:

+1 and same for Blackberries.

Is there some reason people can't wait until they are near a computer? There is little on this forum that could be considered urgent. Plain text is awful; the hand diagrams are clear and easy to read.

[Cthulhu D]

Because you can read the forums while on a bus, or waiting for a bus, or any other activity that involves sitting and waiting. If you're at home or work with a real computer, you might have something else to do

[the hog]

aguahombre, on 2012-January-17, 22:27, said:

I would not expect it to be alerted or alertable. Even if it is a frequent occurence, the opening 3m bidder is not invited to participate further in the auction. Even if they agree that it might happen, or agree that 3NT is a good idea, I don't believe that is what "agreement" means in the laws.

I don't even believe the 3m bidder is obligated to disclose how often partner has done this with no values ---merely that partner believes bidding 3NT is a good idea.

You may well be correct on this point.

[bluecalm]

Quote

I don't even believe the 3m bidder is obligated to disclose how often partner has done this with no values ---merely that partner believes bidding 3NT is a good idea.

While I agree with you that in principle opponents shouldn't have the right to know how often bluffs occur they do have a right to know how you interpret calls like 3S. If you are not going to blindly believe in long spades in partner's hand which include going to 6S over their 6H with some defenseless hand and nice support then you have to alert that an tell them what kind of bid that is.
If you play that "3m preempt means I won't bid again" then alert that and explain, also you should explain what consequences it has (partner might bid on trash to confuse you).
As to the last point, remember that playing a system which makes psyches safe without alerting it is cheating.
For example if you play:
1D - 1M
2M - 3D as to play no matter what opener has which allows you bid 1M freely as bluff you should alert 1M otherwise it's just cheating.

The principle should be very simple: if you hope to profit from a psych because opponents might not know you could safely psych in this spot then you are hoping for unfair advantage. They don't know your system, your understanding and what you consider "general bridge knowledge". You should make them aware of those factors.
Psyches are fair game only if everybody at the table understand all consequences of given bid and no psyche control mechanism is hidden within your agreements (as it was in OP example and as it is most of the time people claim "general bridge knowledge").

[aguahombre]

bluecalm, on 2012-January-18, 04:14, said:

If you play that "3m preempt means I won't bid again" then alert that and explain, also you should explain what consequences it has (partner might bid on trash to confuse you).
As to the last point, remember that playing a system which makes psyches safe without alerting it is cheating.

The principle should be very simple: if you hope to profit from a psych because opponents might not know you could safely psych in this spot then you are hoping for unfair advantage.

The comment I made was in response to a 3NT bid which, on everyone's planet, is not a convention, treatment, method, or anything else. It is to play in 3NT unless alerted and explained as something else. The same would go to any other bid which is a game bid showing a desire to play there.

These bids are not partnership participation. 3m doesn't mean "I won't bid again". It should mean "I won't bid again if partner places the contract; and if I do, I am doing so on my own." Agreements involve partnership bidding or defensive carding, and the opps are entitled to know what they are.

Agreements about how partner will declare a hand, or how frivolously he/she places contracts have nothing to do with disclosure requirements.

[Cascade]

aguahombre, on 2012-January-18, 05:35, said:

The comment I made was in response to a 3NT bid which, on everyone's planet, is not a convention, treatment, method, or anything else. It is to play in 3NT unless alerted and explained as something else. The same would go to any other bid which is a game bid showing a desire to play there.

These bids are not partnership participation. 3m doesn't mean "I won't bid again". It should mean "I won't bid again if partner places the contract; and if I do, I am doing so on my own." Agreements involve partnership bidding or defensive carding, and the opps are entitled to know what they are.

Agreements about how partner will declare a hand, or how frivolously he/she places contracts have nothing to do with disclosure requirements.

I am not at all sure this is correct. Especially if there is a question. Then you are obligated to give all the information you have from partnership understanding and experience. To me this would seem to clearly include for example "sometimes partner bids this on no values and a fit" or whatever is relevant.

[bluecalm]

Quote

These bids are not partnership participation. 3m doesn't mean "I won't bid again". It should mean "I won't bid again if partner places the contract; and if I do, I am doing so on my own."

Are you happy to double them if they compete say to 4S and you hold Kxx of spades ? You should if 3NT is bid to win. You shouldn't if it might be a punt. You know this stuff, they don't, so tell them.
If it's so obvious on "everyone's planet" then it won't hurt to explain anyway.
You should make clear what range of hands partner's bid contain. If they might think 3NT contains only strong hands and you know there are some punts in there and you act accordingly then you are hiding vital piece of information from them.

[aguahombre]

bluecalm, on 2012-January-18, 06:16, said:

Are you happy to double them if they compete say to 4S and you hold Kxx of spades ? You should if 3NT is bid to win. You shouldn't if it might be a punt. You know this stuff, they don't, so tell them.

As the 3m preemptor, I double righty's 4M bid after:

3m (P) 3N (4M)
?..........Of course, with Kxx of righty's suit I would double. I might even double with XXX of the suit, and an outside card somewhere else. That has nothing to do with anything. If partner removes my double, that is his decision. If he psyched 3NT, he knows what he will do if someone doubles something. Whether I will be happy when I double is not disclosable either.

[bluecalm]

Quote

?..........Of course, with Kxx of righty's suit I would double. I might even double with XXX of the suit, and an outside card somewhere else. That has nothing to do with anything. If partner removes my double, that is his decision. If he psyched 3NT, he knows what he will do if someone doubles something. Whether I will be happy when I double is not disclosable either.

If you are happily doubling that way I think everything is ok. If you are not doubling happily because you adjust for partner possibly having some random punt then it's not ok. I think we agree on that one

[Phil]

Vampyr, on 2012-January-17, 23:13, said:

Plain text is awful; the hand diagrams are clear and easy to read.

Somehow we survived about six years on the forums without them.

[nige1]

straube, on 2012-January-17, 01:09, said:

Declarer claimed that 3S should have been alerted and that it was unethical. We don't have an agreement but this is a regular partnership. Usually against a strong auction and after partner's preempt, our change of suit has been lead-directional, sometimes it's a real suit, and occasionally a psyche. You know, double us and find out. On this auction, I probably have some kind of fit, right? I don't pass and then change suit at the 3-level very often. I guess I might.I thought this was just part of bridge.

ggwhiz, on 2012-January-17, 08:57, said:

It is my understanding that psyches are legal period, it's the fielding of a psyche that is not.

IMO, It is illegal for a partnersip to have a "psych" agreement, even if they never use that knowledge to field it.

bluecalm, on 2012-January-18, 04:14, said:

The principle should be very simple: if you hope to profit from a psych because opponents might not know you could safely psych in this spot then you are hoping for unfair advantage. They don't know your system, your understanding and what you consider "general bridge knowledge". You should make them aware of those factors. Psyches are fair game only if everybody at the table understand all consequences of given bid and no psyche control mechanism is hidden within your agreements (as it was in OP example and as it is most of the time people claim "general bridge knowledge").

IMO bluecalm, cascade and Co are right. "General Bridge Knowledge" is a popular euphemism for CPU (concealed partnership understanding)

[straube]

Phil, on 2012-January-17, 22:12, said:

If the preemptor held Jxxx of spades, and had the opportunity raise at the 4, or maybe the 5 level, would this be allowable within the partnership?

We haven't discussed this, but I wouldn't raise. I also wouldn't raise opposite a brand new partner. For me, this is about recognizing a potential lead-directing or psyche situation.

1) both partners are passed hands
2) the opponents are in a strong auction
3) the opponents have not started to find a fit
4) one partner has preempted to the 3-level having declined to preempt previously
5) the other partner has introduced a major
6) the vulnerability was conducive (not unfavorable anyway)

Against this, 3D has been doubled (for values? not alerted) and it is possible that 3S is running. Even in this case, how good are these spades likely to be?

Some situations have higher reward/risk situations for psyches than others. Third seat openers are typically psyched more often than 2nd seat openers. One spade overcalls of strong club is more typically a psyche than against natural one club openers. I think this is part of "general bridge knowledge".

I did have a partner a long time ago who liked to jump to 3N after I opened a weak two bid when he held a fit for me and the opponent doubled. This particular sequence was so peculiar to him and eventually recognizable to me, that I started to alert the opponents to it. After all, he had redouble available if he had points and no fit.

I don't feel the same about the auction in question. I also don't feel I should have to give lessons as to why a particular situation is more likely to attract a psyche than a different situation. I mean, what if only 3 of the 6 I listed were true? What if 2? Also, the odds I would place on 3S being a psyche might be influenced by my holding in the suit. If I have short spades, I would think it more likely that partner is running. If I have Jxxx I would think it more likely that partner is lead-directing or trying to steal the opponent's suit. I don't want to give the opponents odds when my calculation of the odds is influenced by my holding.

I think this is analagous to dishonest signaling. When asked, we tell opponents that we use upside down count and attitude and obvious shift. We usually signal honestly. Occasionally, it pays to signal dishonestly and that depends on the particular situation. We don't alert the opponents as to why it may pay to signal dishonestly in any give instance. That's part of "general bridge knowledge".

In this particular situation, I think 3S is not to be believed. The situation is so psyche-prone as to be practically ineffective as a psyche. As I said, I think I made the wrong bid and would pick 4C if I had a second chance.

[aguahombre]

Phil, on 2012-January-18, 10:02, said:

Somehow we survived about six years on the forums without them.

Yes, it was damned inconsiderate of BBO to make changes which improve the forum environment for people who are using PC's and laptops, yet inconvenient for those who choose to use other devices. I am 100% with Stephanie, this time.

[bluecalm]

Quote

I don't feel the same about the auction in question. I also don't feel I should have to give lessons as to why a particular situation is more likely to attract a psyche than a different situation.

You should be less arrogant and accept you try for advantage you are not entitled to.
Some players who won everything in bridge never psych in that situation and I am pretty sure would autoraise with nice support including going to 6S over their 6H. Just because your peculiar view of bridge is that it's psych situation and you choose partners from your environment who share the view doesn't mean you can withhold the agreement from your opponents.
Playing 3S in the auction as long spades, possibly to find cheap defense of their slam is very reasonable natural treatment and the one many opponents would expect without your alerting it. It's your responsibility to make sure they are not misled about what you are really playing and what hands this 3S contains.

Quote

I don't want to give the opponents odds when my calculation of the odds is influenced by my holding.

You should at least tell them that psyche is likely enough that with 4 card support the odds sway in psyche direction instead of huge double fit on the hand.

Quote

In this particular situation, I think 3S is not to be believed. The situation is so psyche-prone as to be practically ineffective as a psyche.

This is again your world, your experience and your habits which might be completely alien to your opponents which in turn you hope to profit from.
I for one feel it's ridiculous to psyche here and with 4 card support and say : xxxx x QJTxxxx x I am going in 6S without 2nd thought. This is why I don't alert 3S and if my partner choose to psyche here having full knowledge we might be in 6S for -2300 but lucks out and profit from it it's fair game.
You will never be -2300 in case of psych and your opponent don't know that. You try to profit from that ignorance which is mild form of cheating if you were unaware of mechanism and straight up cheating if you continue to do so.

[straube]

So in your partnership, is 3S a fit-showing bid (spades and diamonds) or is it running from 3D doubled? Is it a forward-going bid? Btw, be careful in your insinuations of cheating. I posted the hand because I'd like to know what the rules say about this sort of thing. I've had my own understanding, and we've had mixed responses so far.

[f0rdy]

Cthulhu D, on 2012-January-17, 23:58, said:

Because you can read the forums while on a bus, or waiting for a bus, or any other activity that involves sitting and waiting. If you're at home or work with a real computer, you might have something else to do

Quite. I don't quite understand what affects it, but the handviewer seems pretty variable in Opera on an Android phone; sometimes it displays dodgily, sometimes at about 1/100th scale. I generally just read threads and hope I can guess what the hand is from the reply...

[straube]

Fred said I could post his reply to my email question....


Sorry Straube, but I don't know much about the rules concerning psychs,
alerts, etc.

I agree with you that psychs made when facing a preempt by partner are
not rare (at least in the circles that I normally play in).

Fred

On 1/18/2012 9:41 AM, BBO Discussion Forums wrote:
> fred,
>
> straube has sent you this email from http://www.bridgebas...rums/index.php.
>
>
> Hi Fred, would you mind replying to my thread on psyching after a preempt in
the offline forum? I thought this was a pretty common situation to psyche but a
lot of folks say not. Also, if you side against me, under exactly what
circumstances would I alert a potential psyche and how would I go about doing
so? thanks
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Please note that BBO Discussion Forums has no control over the
> contents of this message.
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

[ggwhiz]

I had a BBO speedball hand that I posted some time ago against a VERY good pair.

It went 3♣ - p - 3♥ to me and I held a monster with 7 semi-solid ♥.

I started with 3nt and lho doubled playing the 3♥ bid as natural and forcing. The auction got convoluted after that but at great risk to both sides and lho's actions were ethically perfect.

I play an impossible 3nt bid with a couple of partners. ie. After 3♣ - dbl - 3nt (on nothing) it shows a hand that wants to dive but is in fear of -800 at the 5 level unless the pre-emptor has extra shape. We alert it as such and pass it out for partner to reveal their intentions or play it there.

As long as proper disclosure happens (it's either bid to make or inviting a sac), I think it's legal.

[straube]

I think Robson/Segal played that convention/treatment. 3N shows willingness to play there (to make or go down undoubled). If the 3N bidder removes a doubled contract, then it invites a sacrifice at the 5-level. Definitely alertable. OTOH, at the right vulnerability someone may be willing to chance 3N doubled as a save (I think I actually ran into that before) and without an understanding I wouldn't take action to remove 3N or double the opponents off if I were the 3m opener. 3N doesn't promise anything but a willingness to play 3N.