[Antrax]

Matchpoints.
You hold
♠QJ53
♥4
♦AKQ75
♣Q93

Partner deals and opens 1♣ (better minor, 3+). The auction continues:
1♣-1♦
1♥-2♠! (fourth suit forcing to game)
2NT (minimum with spade stopper)

Now what? Do you settle for trying to make maximum overtricks in 3NT or keep probing?

[Hanoi5]

I'd bid 3NT, seems like the best spot. Hopefully they'll lead a spade instead of a heart.

[Cyberyeti]

What does 1♣-1♦-1♥ show by your methods ? Do you rebid 1N with all weak no trumps ? does it guarantee a 5th club ?

The danger here is that partner has say Kxx, Jxxx, x, AKJxx where 3N is off if they lead a heart (or spade and heart switch), but 5♣ is excellent.

[Antrax]

1♥ doesn't tell much about the distribution - it could be 6♣-5♥ or 4-4-2-3. We don't bypass a four-card major with a weak NT.

[Zelandakh]

What would a 1♠ rebid by us have meant? If partner can be 4423 and 2♠ is 4th suit forcing then it seems this has to be natural. Any reason not to have bid it?

[Antrax]

Yeah, 1♠ is natural and a one-round force. I bid 2♠ because it still lets us find a 4-4 fit if partner is 4-4-2-3, and it lets me know whether partner has K or A of spades at a relatively low level. If it continues 1NT after 1♠, I pretty much have to bid 3NT, as no bid below that would be game forcing.

[BunnyGo]

I don't see a reason to bid anything but 3NT. In particular, I'm having trouble putting together minimum hands where slam is good. I'm also finding it hard to find a reason to bid anything that is inviting in a suit, as the only game I want to be in is 3NT. If I bid 3S I may see partner bid 4S with 4414 shape, which wouldn't be so bad if he's got the right honors, but it wouldn't be great if he didn't.

[Antrax]

Bummer. I was hoping for a moral victory. This board was a bottom as we went down in a slam I thought was okay. The rest of the auction:
1♣-1♦
1♥-2♠!
2NT-3♣ (doesn't promise more than three card support here)
4♣ (okay, fine, let's go slamming in clubs) - 4♦
4♠-4NT (yes, RKCB for clubs. Yes, our methods for minor slams are still bad)
5♣ (0/3) - 6♣ (must be 3 or he wouldn't have cooperated)

Partner's hand:
♠A6
♥Q762
♦6
♣AKJ764

Down one on a trump lead. I guess I overvalued AKQxx as a loser-discarding suit.

[BunnyGo]

I don't really like the 2NT bid from your partner:

1) It bury's the good 6 card suit.
2) The hand is not a minimum.
3) The stopper isn't great, and he is easily wrong-siding the spade suit.

Why not just bid 3C?

[Antrax]

I can ask him, but generally the order of preference we discussed after FSF bids is a) show three-card support for partner's major b) show a stopper c) describe shape. Should we switch c and b?

[wyman]

If anything, let this be a lesson in judgement. Your partner has (almost) the best 2N bid that you could ever possibly construct here when it comes to slamming in clubs, and you still went down

I think it's crazy to bid anything but 3N at IMPs, but at MPs, I think it's super crazy! Play 3N and outplay the field.

Another point: you're missing 4 keycards. Partner can't have all 4, so you have at least one quick loser (unless you are missing the CK -- point to come on this). So he has 3 keycards and maybe one extra card? AKx / xxxx / x / AKxxx is kind of the best you can hope for, in which case you have 4 spades, 3 diamonds, 5 clubs if they break, and a heart ruff. This is a perfecto, though, and a max.

What's a perfect min? Put 12 points anywhere you want: AJx / xxxx / x / AKxxx. Now slam relies on clubs breaking and playing spades for 4 tricks (unless you ruff two hearts, which is impossible on a trump lead). It's pretty bad.

It's good to look at your hand and not be a bean counter; in this case, most of the field will see 14 and think "that's not enough for slam," and just punt 3N blindly. However, if you're going to move, you need some expectation of it being right. In other words, can partner actually have a hand where slam makes? We see above that he can, but that it takes a perfect max. The usual criteria is that if a perfect min makes slam a good prospect, then we should investigate (but not commit, of course).

[wyman]

wyman, on 2012-January-18, 09:07, said:

If anything, let this be a lesson in judgement. Your partner has (almost) the best 2N bid that you could ever possibly construct here when it comes to slamming in clubs, and you still went down

I think it's crazy to bid anything but 3N at IMPs, but at MPs, I think it's super crazy! Play 3N and outplay the field.

Another point: you're missing 4 keycards. Partner can't have all 4, so you have at least one quick loser (unless you are missing the CK -- point to come on this). So he has 3 keycards and maybe one extra card? AKx / xxxx / x / AKxxx is kind of the best you can hope for, in which case you have 4 spades, 3 diamonds, 5 clubs if they break, and a heart ruff. This is a perfecto, though, and a max.

What's a perfect min? Put 12 points anywhere you want: AJx / xxxx / x / AKxxx. Now slam relies on clubs breaking and playing spades for 4 tricks (unless you ruff two hearts, which is impossible on a trump lead). It's pretty bad.

It's good to look at your hand and not be a bean counter; in this case, most of the field will see 14 and think "that's not enough for slam," and just punt 3N blindly. However, if you're going to move, you need some expectation of it being right. In other words, can partner actually have a hand where slam makes? We see above that he can, but that it takes a perfect max. The usual criteria is that if a perfect min makes slam a good prospect, then we should investigate (but not commit, of course).

Oops. AJx isn't a perfect min -- I have the J.

Something like A10x / xxxx / J / AKxxx

This is actually a reasonable slam. If everything breaks I get 5 diamonds, 5 clubs, 1 spade, and a spade (on a spade lead) or a heart ruff. And I guess even if diamonds don't break, I may get 2 heart ruffs, and I can always fall back on the spade hook if the lead is a trump. The problem is I can't ask partner about the DJ or the S10, so "investigating" the slam doesn't even seem practical. It's much more likely he has stuff wasted in hearts, so I'll still just bid 3N and take my avg/avg+.

[BunnyGo]

That said, the "perfect minimum" is usually looking for a shapeless (beyond what has been promised) minimum where slam is nearly cold. The idea being that if he has extras and accepts your invitation, then slam should at least be good a lot of the time.

Agumperz has a couple interesting articles on BBO about this.

[Phil]

I would bid 3♣. At least one of us will have a good chance of describing his hand. Maybe we can steer partner toward 5m with weak hearts.

I hate a method where 1♥ doesn't show a flaw for NT.

[quiddity]

I don't understand 3♣. Why try for a slam (or some perfecto minor-suit game) at matchpoints, with a 14-count opposite a minimum opener, with AKQ opposite known shortness? The only thing 3♣ is likely to do is steer the opponents toward a heart lead instead of a spade.

[Phil]

quiddity, on 2012-January-18, 12:34, said:

I don't understand 3♣. Why try for a slam (or some perfecto minor-suit game) at matchpoints, with a 14-count opposite a minimum opener, with AKQ opposite known shortness? The only thing 3♣ is likely to do is steer the opponents toward a heart lead instead of a spade.

A few comments:

1) Frequently they will lead a heart anyway. If partner has a good heart stopper, I'll feel better about 3N if its bid.

2) 3♣ isn't a slam try. Its patterning and looking for the best game, although of course we could have extras. If partner does have have weak hearts, then, sure our slam chances are greatly enhanced, and 5m might be break-even with 3N anyway with the heart lead.

[jmcw]

3NT, no 2nd choice. I'm quite comfortable with the lead coming into my partner's nice ♥, but that may happen less than 1/2 time.