[Antrax]

Matchpoints, favourable.

---

A terrible result from last night.

[dwar0123]

I was in a similar slam today that was lacking an off suit ace and the 10 of trumps as well in an 8 card AK fit.

Technically this isn't hopeless on sight, QJ could fall tight or east could drop a stiff honor and you can finesse west twice.

[broze]

Another auction demonstrating the need to have an ace-asking bid that can stop in 5 of a minor. After 4♦ kickback reveals you are missing the Q♣ and an ace you can comfortably stop in 5 with only an 8 card fit.

[Antrax]

Is 5♣ where you want to be, looking at the hands?

[dwar0123]

6♥ has play but I think i'd settle for 3nt

[broze]

Antrax, on 2012-January-23, 05:09, said:

Is 5♣ where you want to be, looking at the hands?

Ok, I have my IMP hat on. There is certainly a strong argument for playing in NT, but kickback also allows you to do this. I certainly wouldn't be comfortable playing in 6♥ when the A♥ appears offside.

[Fluffy]

broze, on 2012-January-23, 05:04, said:

Another auction demonstrating the need to have an ace-asking bid that can stop in 5 of a minor. After 4♦ kickback reveals you are missing the Q♣ and an ace you can comfortably stop in 5 with only an 8 card fit.

Conventions might help when judgement doesn´t.

EDITED upon nobody´s request: North has nothing extra to tell over 3NT so he should pass, he has stated this hand:

5♥, 4♣, 14+ HCP (or extra shape to compensate) without diamond support.

To bid over 3NT he would need to:

a) have a lot of extra strenght (about 18+ HCP) (bidding 4NT or 4♣)
b) have diamond support with a good hand (any nice looking 1534 is ok) (bidding 4♦)
c) have a very good 6 card heart suit. (bidding 4♥)
d) have extreme shape like 5♥-6♣ (bidding 4♣ or maybe 5♣ althou the latter should be very rare)

[gwnn]

Fluffy easy on those words we are in the b/i section. I agree that pulling to 4♣ isn't reasonable.

[Antrax]

TBH, at the table my sentiments were similar to Fluffy's. We're not experts so it's reasonable to expect some misunderstandings with partner, but I don't see how North's 4♣ on a bad five-card suit is anything but telling me "I don't think you can bid, p".
[edit]
I meant Fluffy's post before the edit

[gwnn]

Well 4♣ has some upside because in normal methods 3♣ only promised 5-4 and maybe you have a good slam in a 5-3 or a good 5♣ with 3N down. However, neither of these cases is that likely and your partner should just shut his piehole make a normal/disciplined pass.

[Cyberyeti]

This is a tricky one particularly given that 6♥ is not so bad opposite 10x rather than 9x, and you don't want to be in 5♣ at matchpoints.

I think you have to have 4♦ kickback available over 4♣ to get out of this alive.

Depending on how N viewed his hand either his 4N (2 without Q♣) or 5N (2 without and a void by my methods) response could be passed.

[Antrax]

BTW, why would 4♦ be kickback here? Let's say S has the following hand:
♠KQx
♥xx
♦AKxxxxx
♣x

And N bids 4♣ after 3NT. What does S bid with the hand above?

[BunnyGo]

Antrax, on 2012-January-23, 07:20, said:

BTW, why would 4♦ be kickback here? Let's say S has the following hand:
♠KQx
♥xx
♦AKxxxxx
♣x

And N bids 4♣ after 3NT. What does S bid with the hand above?

4NT *has* to be to play on this auction. I don't know whether kickback is ever an answer in the B/I forums, but 4NT not being blackwood certainly is (and is what I would bid on that hand).

[Cyberyeti]

Antrax, on 2012-January-23, 07:20, said:

BTW, why would 4♦ be kickback here? Let's say S has the following hand:
♠KQx
♥xx
♦AKxxxxx
♣x

And N bids 4♣ after 3NT. What does S bid with the hand above?

Well I'd bid 3♦ on that rather than 3N, but I'm not familiar with the 2/1 auction.

[broze]

Antrax, on 2012-January-23, 07:20, said:

BTW, why would 4♦ be kickback here? Let's say S has the following hand:
♠KQx
♥xx
♦AKxxxxx
♣x

And N bids 4♣ after 3NT. What does S bid with the hand above?

Yes, I agree with cyberyeti. In a 2/1 auction you would surely rebid 3♦ with this hand. After North's pull of 3NT to 4♣ that would to all intents and purposes set ♣ as trump in my partnership (one of the reasons I think it's a bad bid - those ♣ are pretty horrible). Then 4♦ would be kickback, 4♥ and 4NT natural.

BunnyGo, on 2012-January-23, 07:31, said:

4NT *has* to be to play on this auction. I don't know whether kickback is ever an answer in the B/I forums, but 4NT not being blackwood certainly is (and is what I would bid on that hand).

Would you not want to bid 4♥ instead of 4NT? EDIT: Although, having said that I know pairs that reserve that kind of bid for when they have an honour doubleton. Partnership style I guess.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Antrax, on 2012-January-23, 03:24, said:

Matchpoints, favourable.

---

A terrible result from last night.

One problem is that 3C hinders the ability to express a minimum opener .
However, I agree with the others that pass of partner's 3NT is more prudent.
Once you rebid 4C, pard was expecting more.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Here is my homegrown version of rebids after a 2/1 over a 1H opening:
1H - 2D! ( GF )
2H! ( any minimum, may have 4s ) - 2S! ( artificial ask )
2NT ( no 4s ) - 3D (no 4c, 5+d; leaves room for you to bid 3H with extra length )
3NT - pass

[mikeh]

On the given auction, the problem is clearly with N, who bid as if he held Ax AQxxx x KQJxx or the equivalent.

Whether he should even bid 3♣ in the first place is an interesting issue. I assume, from the fact that S bid 3N, that 3♣ didn't, for this partnership, show extras. I;d be very worried about missing slam in my partnerships were I to bid 3N over 3♣.

1♥ 2♦
2♥ 2N
3♣ 3♥
3♠ 3N

is one sequence I would expect to be fairly common. Other sequences might reach 4N.

As for why I wouldn't bid 3♣.....there are two schools of thought on whether 3♣ shows extras. I belong to the school that thinks it does, or should. Here, the hand almost qualifies, due to the modest extra hcp and the 5th club....the reason I wouldn't is the void in partner's suit. Voids in partner's suit should be a warning sign, not a reason to be encouraged.

[neilkaz]

Blame North 90% as pulling 3NT to 4♣ after having stretched to find extras in hand for the 3♣ bid is bad, especially at MP.

10% to system which apparently didn't have a good way to check for key cards after 4♣ and stay out of slam.

For me, pulling a volunatarily bid 3nt like this to 4m is quite SI and it would be good either to agree to respond to it as Minorwood or to be able to bid KickBack right after 4♣.

Anyhow..it seems North must have been looking at an extra King or even ace for his bidding.

.. neilkaz ..

[ggwhiz]

I agree that 4♣ by North was a stretch but not hopelessly so.

If South bids 4nt it is usually to play (in my partnership it is after 3nt has been bid to play) but if North responds 5♥ (2 KC without the Q) South can bid 5♠ to demand a 5nt bid and play it there.

I would need to cue 4♦ get a 4♠ cue then bid 4nt to turn that bid from "to play" into KC and I would.

It would take a lot of bad luck for that to go down.

At MP's the choice on hands like this is generally 6♣ or 3nt but evolving partnership agreements can let you out in 4 or 5nt too while making all your slam tries.

[Antrax]

mikeh, on 2012-January-23, 13:19, said:

Whether he should even bid 3♣ in the first place is an interesting issue. I assume, from the fact that S bid 3N, that 3♣ didn't, for this partnership, show extras. I;d be very worried about missing slam in my partnerships were I to bid 3N over 3♣.

3♣ Does promise extras, the problem is we hadn't discussed in depth what "extras" really means, in this context. It's 15+ HCP, but that's pretty much all we defined. I deliberated between 3N and 4N, but eventually decided to devalue my hand since partner must be imbalanced (5-4-3-1 or more) and if he had three diamonds, 3♦ would also show extras here. So, partner has at most one diamond, thus I devalued my diamond holding and decided I'll try for most overtricks in 3NT and forget about 6.