[JLOGIC]

 bluecalm, on 2012-March-02, 02:42, said:

I am not convinced that it should be natural but:



this is not fair.
If responder has KQx Qxx xx T98xxx or something like that he is not thrilled to pass 1C, because partner is quite likely to have strong hand with club shortness (and possible long suit on the side too) and playing in 1C is a disaster in such case.
Once partner bid 2N things change considerably though as now the worst thing which can happen is 4-4-4-1 in partner's hand, usually we flop 2+clubs though.

One other meaning which makes sense to me is a hand lacking club stopper with extras, something like: KQx KQx T9xx xxx maybe.

I mean not to argue semantics but this is 14 cards. If you took away a major card, you should obv pass 2N rather than bid 3C, I mean you will usually have 3 or 4 club losers, and you have 22+ points, why would you pull 2N? I would expect to make 2N on power way more than making 3C and going down in 2N.

[ahydra]

Is it not possible for South to have 4-4 in the majors and a hand too good to respond at the 1-level? Perfectly reasonable to play jump = 5 cards, and perfectly reasonable also for the doubler to not bid a 4c major if he has a balanced 15.

ahydra

[gwnn]

No it's not perfectly reasonable to play that 1NT could have 4-4 in the majors, or even one 4 card major routinely.

If you want to play jump=5 cards, you need to play the 1M advance as ~0-10 and require doubler to raise on all hands with 4-card support. I think that's a playable style, indeed I think some Italians might play this way.

[gnasher]

 gwnn, on 2012-March-02, 06:21, said:

If you want to play jump=5 cards, you need to play the 1M advance as ~0-10 and require doubler to raise on all hands with 4-card support. I think that's a playable style, indeed I think some Italians might play this way.

Another way to do is is to play the cue-bid as a one-round force only, including all the hands without a five-card suit. That's what I do in one partnership. Sequences like dbl-2♣;2♥, dbl-2♣;2♦-2♥ and dbl-2♣;2♥-2♠ are non-forcing, so the downside is that if either partner wants to force to game he has to go to the three-level.

You can also play dbl-1♦ as an artificial negative.

[MrAce]

 bluecalm, on 2012-March-02, 02:42, said:

I am not convinced that it should be natural but:



this is not fair.
If responder has KQx Qxx xx T98xxx or something like that he is not thrilled to pass 1C, because partner is quite likely to have strong hand with club shortness (and possible long suit on the side too) and playing in 1C is a disaster in such case.
Once partner bid 2N things change considerably though as now the worst thing which can happen is 4-4-4-1 in partner's hand, usually we flop 2+clubs though.

One other meaning which makes sense to me is a hand lacking club stopper with extras, something like: KQx KQx T9xx xxx maybe.

I am looking at the hand you constructed, and then i am looking at your comments and having hard time where to start to talk about the inconsistency. Your pd's 2NT basically represented aprx a strong NT hand (can still have short ♣ as u mentioned) that was unable to bid 1NT previous round. And you want to play 3♣ with this hand and not 2 NT or 3NT ? I mean you are so busy looking at your hand and beans and cant see the bigger picture. If you put 15 hcp to your pd's hand with stiff or xx ♣ u almost always have a good shot at 3 NT since your hand guards their suit and since you will play double dummy and since defense will have to be done from one hand etc etc. If they cash ♣ u may end up establishing 2-3 ♣ tricks, if they dont good luck to them with digging the other suits which you overwhelmiongly support your pd's 14-15 hcp. But if you dont wanna play 3 NT, then wtf is wrong with 2NT with this hand u hold ?

But regardless, as others said, natural or not, i think its an unneccesarry bid.

[bluecalm]

I was stretching to construct some hand with clubs. You guy convinced me that it's not easy task. I give up
So yeah, it shouldn't be natural. Maybe lack of club stopper then ?
For example if it went:

1H dbl p 1N
p 2n p 3H

I would expect 3H being hand strong enough for game but without heart stopper. Maybe it should be something similar in OP problem ?

[MrAce]

 bluecalm, on 2012-March-02, 22:03, said:

I was stretching to construct some hand with clubs. You guy convinced me that it's not easy task. I give up
So yeah, it shouldn't be natural. Maybe lack of club stopper then ?
For example if it went:

1H dbl p 1N
p 2n p 3H

I would expect 3H being hand strong enough for game but without heart stopper. Maybe it should be something similar in OP problem ?

Tbh i dunno wth that 3♣ is. I wouldnt bid it at the table.

[gnasher]

I'm happy with DNE, but maybe it's an attempt to get to the right game with KQx AJx xxx xxxx opposite AJxx KQxx AKxx x?

[cloa513]

Two possibilities, partner has a good hand in clubs and therefore doesn't want to let opener get in a cheap rebid as he think opener has few clubs or he has too much cover in clubs e.g. KJ10x and thinks it is most likely opener is double suited so now you have a second suit poorly or not covered at all- either 3C is forcing.

[wyman]

 gnasher, on 2012-March-03, 02:24, said:

I'm happy with DNE, but maybe it's an attempt to get to the right game with KQx AJx xxx xxxx opposite AJxx KQxx AKxx x?

As a corollary, could it be an attempt to get to the right partial with Kxx AJx xxx xxxx?

[wyman]

Anyway, ok, this thread certainly convinced me that this DNE. Thanks.

[MrAce]

 wyman, on 2012-March-05, 08:12, said:

Anyway, ok, this thread certainly convinced me that this DNE. Thanks.

Whats a DNE ?

[BunnyGo]

 MrAce, on 2012-March-05, 17:45, said:

Whats a DNE ?

does not exist

[gwnn]

wyman stop playing with our emotions and tell us what he had!

[wyman]

haha, the "he" was me.

It was a CtC and I bid 3C (I wouldn't have pulled this in a real event ) after bidding 1N with something like Q10x / K9x / Q10xx / Jxx
[incidentally, I was repulsed by 1D with this, but apparently 1D is totally normal, and I'm a horrible overbidder], and after 2N I figured a major suit partial was probably best (and obv with clubs stopped well, p will bid 3N). Partner bid 3S and I passed; he was like (bad 5)=3=4=1 or something and we scored up 8 for this debacle (4S=10).

When I gave this auction to a friend, his immediate response was "clubs, what else? And apparently he lied about his values when he bid 1N."

I wasn't so sure, hence the post.

[phil_20686]

 BunnyGo, on 2012-March-05, 17:48, said:

does not exist

I thought Do Not Ever.

[BunnyGo]

 phil_20686, on 2012-March-05, 20:05, said:

I thought Do Not Ever.

it maybe in other situations, but only "does not exist" fits the grammar of the sentence it was used in.