[pigpenz]

---

your options between cue bid and double at matchpoints.
I generaly would take cue bid as take out, and double as showing suit doubled or willingness to double final contract.

[mike777]

I would have opened 1c planning on passing any bid by robot pard so pass ovr 2h

[jillybean]

pass/2♥

[pigpenz]

jillybean, on 2012-March-23, 21:18, said:

pass/2♥

Thats not what i was asking?
I was asking the difference between double and 2♠

[pigpenz]

to me this is the sort of hand that you run into at matchpoints all the time
you have the balance of the points the opps have a 5-2 fit from the auction most likely,
though it could be 6-2.

simulations that I ran with dmpro show
2♠ 8%
2NT us 64%
3♦us 10%
3♥ us 54%

so I am supposed to give up on the hand cause they bid 1NT overcall.
My feeling I could double to show hearts, If I wanted partner to takeout could have bid 2♠
double still gives partner a chance to pass and we can still double 2♠
he could also bid3♥or 2NT

[cloa513]

pigpenz, on 2012-March-24, 12:08, said:

to me this is the sort of hand that you run into at matchpoints all the time
you have the balance of the points the opps have a 5-2 fit from the auction most likely,
though it could be 6-2.

simulations that I ran with dmpro show
2♠ 8%
2NT us 64%
3♦us 10%
3♥ us 54%

so I am supposed to give up on the hand cause they bid 1NT overcall.
My feeling I could double to show hearts, If I wanted partner to takeout could have bid 2♠
double still gives partner a chance to pass and we can still double 2♠
he could also bid3♥or 2NT

Except you are wrong because the opponent GIBs left the contract in hearts where they might have a 2-0 fit so your statements are invalid- you are assuming they will go spades.

[pigpenz]

so my statements are invalid but hand generators say differently...GIB passed the double cause he only had 2♠.....I did not see the pass by GIB W highlighted that said 4 ♥ when he passed 2♥x

a hand generator just on the info from my hand, west 1NT and norths 9+ hcp say the hand belongs to us just as much as it belongs to EW if not even more. I can only juggle the hand information so far for the simulations.

West 15-18 hcp
2-2♠
2-5♥
2-6♦
2-6♣

North 9+hcp

East
5-6♠
0-4♥
0-6♦
0-6♣

[cloa513]

pigpenz, on 2012-March-23, 18:18, said:

---

your options between cue bid and double at matchpoints.
I generaly would take cue bid as take out, and double as showing suit doubled or willingness to double final contract.

Why GIB can't just accept a Jacoby transfer even if its "doubled" whatever his hand is like whether 2 card support, 3 card support or a bad 4 card support so increasing the uncertainty for defenders. Can't the Jacoby transfer be done with more than 5 cards of a major?

[Bbradley62]

pigpenz, on 2012-March-23, 18:18, said:

your options between cue bid and double at matchpoints.

pigpenz, on 2012-March-24, 09:29, said:

jillybean, on 2012-March-23, 21:18, said:

pass/2♥

Thats not what i was asking?
I was asking the difference between double and 2♠

Sorry... misunderstood...

This post has been edited by Bbradley62: 2012-March-27, 07:28

[Bbradley62]

I completely agree with pigpenz that the double of 2♥ should be penalty-oriented.

This post has been edited by Bbradley62: 2012-March-27, 07:28

[barmar]

A common understanding among good bridge players is that accepting a transfer that has been doubled shows at least 3 card support, so the 1NT bidder passes with only 2. This helps the transfer bidder know whether to compete if the opponents keep bidding.

However, perhaps this should be different in the case of a 1NT overcall that has been doubled, as it's unlikely that you'll want to compete -- advancer is likely to be very weak. I admit that I've never discussed this with any human partner, so I would assume the same agreements as over an opening NT (since we usually agree that all systems are on). And that's what GIB is doing,

[cloa513]

barmar, on 2012-March-26, 23:42, said:

A common understanding among good bridge players is that accepting a transfer that has been doubled shows at least 3 card support, so the 1NT bidder passes with only 2. This helps the transfer bidder know whether to compete if the opponents keep bidding.

However, perhaps this should be different in the case of a 1NT overcall that has been doubled, as it's unlikely that you'll want to compete -- advancer is likely to be very weak. I admit that I've never discussed this with any human partner, so I would assume the same agreements as over an opening NT (since we usually agree that all systems are on). And that's what GIB is doing,

Really so they can pass 2HX- who are these good bridge players you refer to.

[cloa513]

cloa513, on 2012-March-27, 00:56, said:

Really so they can pass 2HX- with a balanced hand the support for partner's suit is mostly irrelevant- who are these good bridge players you refer to.

[barmar]

cloa513, on 2012-March-27, 00:56, said:

Really so they can pass 2HX- who are these good bridge players you refer to.

Just about everyone I play with has that understanding. In the auction:

1NT (P) 2♥ (X)
2♠

2♠ shows 3+ ♠. Passing would show 2 ♠; if responder still wants to play in ♠, they bid 2♠ when the auction comes around to them again.

I suppose you could conduct a poll in the I/A forum to see if this understanding is common among good players.

Regarding NT overcalls, we don't usually discuss much other than "systems on", which suggests that the same agreement applies. But as I said, the information about how many spades the NT bidder has is less useful in this case.

[pigpenz]

I think a majority of good players would play that pass shows 2 accepting transfer shows 3
but others also can have that pass shows xxx of artificial suit and redouble shows xxxx.

though if you def had tenaces to protect would it not still be beneficial to accept the transfer?
which is what part of the idea of the transfers were for.

[barmar]

The main idea of transfers is for responder to be able to invite game. Before transfers, responder could either bid 2♦/♥/♠ to play, 3♣/♦/♥/♠ to give a choice of games, or 4♥/♠ to play. This isn't so important after the opponents have opened and doubled you.

For most good players, I think redoubling the transfer shows a good holding in the transfer suit (e.g. AQxxx), interested in playing there. This is good for punishing people who double because they have Kxxxx in the suit.

[pigpenz]

barmar, on 2012-March-27, 22:31, said:

The main idea of transfers is for responder to be able to invite game. Before transfers, responder could either bid 2♦/♥/♠ to play, 3♣/♦/♥/♠ to give a choice of games, or 4♥/♠ to play. This isn't so important after the opponents have opened and doubled you.

For most good players, I think redoubling the transfer shows a good holding in the transfer suit (e.g. AQxxx), interested in playing there. This is good for punishing people who double because they have Kxxxx in the suit.

yes, and even 4 good ones will work
on alot of hands if you happen to have all the strength you can make on top cards.
In Pasadena back in 80's we ran into this, everyone get doubling 2♣ on some crappy club holdings, we
changed the next few days to redoubling on good ♣ holding and during tournament we made 2♣xx twice.

there was a corollary to this that
if you open 2NT and opp overcalls at 3 level he most likely isnt doing on a hand thathe could beat 3NT on.
so if you play negative doubles most times you can just bid 3NT cause its not solid suit. just a thought.