[Cthulhu D]

Hey, related question, if you lead out of turn face down (important) and everyone says 'you're not supposed to be doing that idiot' (not infrequent, because I am indeed an idiot), are you just supposed to pick up the card or does declarer have a range of options including telling you to pick up the card?

The laws are not hugely clear on this point, though I have no doubt it is in there. Somewhere.

[blackshoe]

When someone points out an irregularity, you have only one legal option: call the director. You are not supposed to pick up the card. Declarer has no options other than calling the TD either. Yes it is in the laws. Laws 9 and 10. More specifically:

Quote

Law 9B1(a): The director should be summoned at once when attention is drawn to an irregularity.

and

Quote

Law 9B2: No player shall take any action until the director has explained all matters in regard to rectification.

and

Quote

Law 9C: Any premature correction of an irregularity by the offender may subject him to a further rectification (see the lead restrictions in Law 26).

and

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Law 10A: The director alone has the right to determine rectifications when applicable. Players do not have the right to determine (or waive – see Law 81C5) rectifications on their own initiative.

Note: "should" in law 9B1(a) means that failure to do it is an infraction.

[bluejak]

However, the TD will merely tell you to pick it up. Declarer has no options. So, in practice, while Ed is right the TD should be called, when people do not call the TD but let the player just put it back in his hand no harm is actually done.

When the change was made many years ago to face-down leads there were two advantages.

• Partner's questions were deferred until you had led, so UI from his questions had less bad effects, and
  
• Leads out of turn were corrected without penalty if you had not turned them up

[barmar]

When the wrong player makes the FDOL, and asks "Any questions?", the usual response is "Yes, why are you leading?".

[c_corgi]

It is not clear to me that if it is both face down and out of turn it counts as an opening lead, maybe not even as an irregularity. Am I missing something?

[blackshoe]

If it's not a lead, what do you think it is?

[bluejak]

Yes: a lead face-down is a lead, by definition, just as a red car is a car. So it is an infraction if out of turn, though with almost no consequences.

[barmar]

 blackshoe, on 2012-May-18, 14:00, said:

If it's not a lead, what do you think it is?

A player putting one of his cards face down on the table while he's thinking.

But I'm with you: if it looks like a lead, it's a lead. Anyone with any experience with the game can tell the difference between someone putting cards down and leading them. There's also no good reason for a player to take a card out of his hand and put it down on the table, in the manner of someone making the FDOL, if he doesn't think he's leading.

Some people sort their hands by putting the cards face down on the table, then picking them up one at a time and putting them into the appropriate place in their hand. At the moment that they're picking up the last card their hands are in approximately the same position as making the FDOL. But anyone can tell the difference: in one case the card is moving from the hand to the table, in the other it's moving from the table to the hand.

[sfi]

 barmar, on 2012-May-18, 16:58, said:

But anyone can tell the difference: in one case the card is moving from the hand to the table, in the other it's moving from the table to the hand.

That and the situation you describe would be taking place at the beginning of the auction period. It's really not hard to tell when a card is led rather than dropped out of hand, not picked up, or put down on the table when the player is thinking (which does not trigger 13 hidden penalty cards for leads out of turn).

[c_corgi]

L41A:
After a bid, double or redouble has been followed by three passes in rotation, the defender on presumed declarer’s left makes the opening lead face down*. The face-down lead may be withdrawn only upon instruction of the Director after an irregularity (see Law 47E2); the withdrawn card must be returned to the defender’s hand.
-------------------------------------

I read this as implying that if it is not made by the player on presumed declarer's left (whatever his intent) then it is not the opening lead. It would have to be faced in order to become the opening lead if it was made by a different player.

[blackshoe]

If putative declarer's RHO thinks he's on lead, and puts a card on the table face down, this is a face down opening lead out of turn. It doesn't matter much, because the director will tell him to put it back in his hand, and then tell his partner to make his lead face down. Nobody except the player who screwed up knows what the card is, so there is no UI or other problem. It is not a penalty card because it was never exposed. If you want to call it "not a lead", that's up to you, but IMO you're just flat wrong, just like the people who say that a reverse which by partnership agreement does not show extra values isn't a reverse.

[gordontd]

 blackshoe, on 2012-May-18, 20:43, said:

If you want to call it "not a lead", that's up to you, but IMO you're just flat wrong, just like the people who say that a reverse which by partnership agreement does not show extra values isn't a reverse.

Or the people who say that for them the ten is not an honour.

[paua]

 Cthulhu D, on 2012-May-17, 21:52, said:

Hey, related question, if you lead out of turn face down (important) and everyone says 'you're not supposed to be doing that idiot' (not infrequent, because I am indeed an idiot), are you just supposed to pick up the card or does declarer have a range of options including telling you to pick up the card?

The laws are not hugely clear on this point, though I have no doubt it is in there. Somewhere.

The Laws are very clear on this as explained. There is sometimes UI from a FDOL. "I'm merrily leading our bid suit."

An unscrupulous pair could have an agreement for the wrong defender to make an incorrect FDOL, meaning whatever :
"lead your suit not mine", "lead the unbid suit", "lead a minor", etc. So the Director should be called so that it is witnessed and mentally recorded. If the same pair do it several times in a session the Director will be aware and take serious action.

[Cthulhu D]

 paua, on 2012-May-19, 15:18, said:

The Laws are very clear on this as explained. There is sometimes UI from a FDOL. "I'm merrily leading our bid suit."

An unscrupulous pair could have an agreement for the wrong defender to make an incorrect FDOL, meaning whatever :
"lead your suit not mine", "lead the unbid suit", "lead a minor", etc. So the Director should be called so that it is witnessed and mentally recorded. If the same pair do it several times in a session the Director will be aware and take serious action.

Yeah, I've always been told to pick it up at the club, I was just wondering what the rules are actually rather than the TD saying 'yeah pick up and (my partner) leads'

[bluejak]

 gordontd, on 2012-May-19, 02:40, said:

Or the people who say that for them the ten is not an honour.

*coff* Oh dear.