[jillybean]

1♣:1♦
2♥:2♠
3♣:4♦
4♠:queen ask?

2♥ strong jump, 4♦ kickback, 4♠ 1430, how do I ask for the queen?

[quiddity]

I don't play kickback, but wouldn't it make sense to have 4NT ask for the queen? Or more generally, if the initial response doesn't guarantee/deny the queen, 5 of trumps is sign-off, the first non-signoff step is queen-ask, the second non-signoff step is king-ask. And I guess the next NT bid can substitute for a third-round ask. So 4NT = queen ask, 5C = signoff, 5D = king ask, 5H/S = third-round ask, 5NT = third-round ask in diamonds.

[mike777]

jillybean, on 2012-June-06, 15:54, said:

1♣:1♦
2♥:2♠
3♣:4♦
4♠:queen ask?

2♥ strong jump, 4♦ kickback, 4♠ 1430, how do I ask for the queen?

4nt

btw prefer to play 03-14 kickback.

[blackshoe]

4NT would ask for the ♣queen. 5♣ would be to play. 5♦ would suggest responder has or does not care about ♣Q, and ask for the ♥K. 5♠ would suggest responder has or does not care about ♣Q and ♥K, and ask for the ♦K.

Even if you don't play all that, 4NT would ask for the ♣queen.

[GHS_K_Chow]

With the partners I play with (whether kickback or minorwood), over the minors, 4N and 5m would be to play. The cheapest non-5m or non-4N bid, in this case, 5♦, would be queen ask.

[GHS_K_Chow]

Lag. Posted twice.

[nigel_k]

I play that the first step is always the queen ask. In response to that, first step denies the queen and others show specific kings.

[jillybean]

4N was my guess, unfortunately my partner mistook it for quantitative.

I think on this auction it should be clear that 4N is the queen ask however on other auctions after kickback and a spade response, would 4N ever be a place to play?

[Phil]

4N is the Q ask. A good rule is if responder to KB has "x" key cards (you can usually tell between 0/3, 1/4), then 4N is the Q ask.

Put it this way, when we show three keys, do we really want to play 4N (i.e., partner has ZERO)?

I would not have had the same comfort level as you that 4♦ is RKC.

[jillybean]

Phil, on 2012-June-06, 18:42, said:

4N is the Q ask. A good rule is if responder to KB has "x" key cards (you can usually tell between 0/3, 1/4), then 4N is the Q ask.

Put it this way, when we show three keys, do we really want to play 4N (i.e., partner has ZERO)?

And if partner shows 2 keys, you would play 4N as Q ask too? blonde moment

Phil, on 2012-June-06, 18:42, said:

I would not have had the same comfort level as you that 4♦ is RKC.

We are in a gf auction and 4♦ is a jump, it's KB

[jillybean]

nigel_k, on 2012-June-06, 17:47, said:

I play that the first step is always the queen ask. In response to that, first step denies the queen and others show specific kings.

Do you play that the second step is King ask ?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

You have identified the peril of the Q-ask in Kickback when you use 4NT next as "to play" . [EDIT: In the case of the 4♠ reply ... ] you have NO Q-ask BELOW 5-trump when ♣ are trump .
When ♦ are trump there is no problem .... You will always have 5C next as ♦ Q-ask.

If you don't use 4NT next as "to play" , then there is no problem .

Also, with Minorwood there is no problem at all .... even when 4NT next = to play ... for either minor as trump.

Some have tried to reduce the problem by playing "variable RKC " based on whether the "asker" is the strong or weak hand:

-- use 0314 when the asker is the WEAK hand ...

-- use 1430 when the asker is the STRONG hand ...

I know, just relying on one method is confusing enough .... so I won't go into the "rules" for the weak and strong hands.

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2012-June-07, 07:05

[mike777]

jillybean, on 2012-June-06, 18:37, said:

4N was my guess, unfortunately my partner mistook it for quantitative.

I think on this auction it should be clear that 4N is the queen ask however on other auctions after kickback and a spade response, would 4N ever be a place to play?

No, you can never play in 4nt, just have that meta rule, 4nt bid is never to play after Kickback.

One auction you should discuss is the following but never have 4nt be to play.

clubs are trumps and 4d is rkc in clubs and pard bids 4h now:
4s=queen ask
4nt= discuss but not to play, we play it as grand try showing KD,
5c=sign off.
5d=specific K ask, deny KH, grand try, deny KD.
5h=specific K ask, showing KH, grand try, deny KD.

[mike777]

bbo forum is lagging and dupping posts.

[CSGibson]

In the partnership where I play kickback, we have the agreement that in this specific auction, where 4♦ is kickback for clubs & gets a 4♠ response, that 4N is a Q ask. In all other minor suit kickback auctions, 4N by the kickback initiator is an offer to play for us. If we did not discuss this auction, however, I'm pretty sure that my partner and I would have been on different pages the first time it came up.

edit: The reason we came to this agreement was that, especially playing matchpoints, it felt like it was important to be able to stop in 4N, except in this specific auction where stopping in 5C when we didn't have the Q became the biggest priority. The way we handle all other minor suit kickback auctions is that the first (non-4N, non 5 of our minor) step is the Q ask, and the next step guarantees all the keycards and asks for specific kings. Our rules for denying the Q are also clear, and facilitate playing in 4N - the cheaper bid between returning to our suit or NT denies the Queen.

[Phil]

jillybean, on 2012-June-06, 18:52, said:

And if partner shows 2 keys, you would play 4N as Q ask too?

Think about what you just asked.

[jillybean]

Phil, on 2012-June-06, 22:22, said:

Think about what you just asked.

yeah, ignore that

After a kickback response do you use same KB suit to ask for Kings or 1st step Queen, 2nd step Kings?

[jillybean]

CSGibson, on 2012-June-06, 21:40, said:

In the partnership where I play kickback, we have the agreement that in this specific auction, where 4♦ is kickback for clubs & gets a 4♠ response, that 4N is a Q ask. In all other minor suit kickback auctions, 4N by the kickback initiator is an offer to play for us. If we did not discuss this auction, however, I'm pretty sure that my partner and I would have been on different pages the first time it came up.

edit: The reason we came to this agreement was that, especially playing matchpoints, it felt like it was important to be able to stop in 4N, except in this specific auction where stopping in 5C when we didn't have the Q became the biggest priority. The way we handle all other minor suit kickback auctions is that the first (non-4N, non 5 of our minor) step is the Q ask, and the next step guarantees all the keycards and asks for specific kings. Our rules for denying the Q are also clear, and facilitate playing in 4N - the cheaper bid between returning to our suit or NT denies the Queen.

Thanks, this is very useful.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

jillybean, on 2012-June-06, 15:54, said:

1♣:1♦
2♥:2♠
3♣:4♦
4♠:queen ask?

2♥ strong jump, 4♦ kickback, 4♠ 1430, how do I ask for the queen?

Another way to reduce the possibility of a 4S reply ( when ♣ are trump ) is to use Minorwood when suit agreement is first shown at the 3-level and Kickback when suit agreement is first shown at the 4-level .

In your example, you could have used 4C! = Minorwood .

[Phil]

Think of Kickback as a parallel to a 4N auction for spades. So when you are stuck, just project the auction and pretend like are responding to 4N instead of 4x.