[fromageGB]

When playing a kickback, I think it is a mistake whatever the trump suit to attempt to keep 4NT as natural. You will then be really stuck when you need the queen for a slam. Definitely the next step should be the queen ask.

What I don't understand is the way people use RKCB 3041 or 4031 etc. It doesn't make sense to me, never having played that over a 4NT ask. When I converted to kickback after reading the old useful space article I adopted a simple 1234 approach. Much easier. And of course more certain - I have seen distributional hands where you will NOT know whether the answer is 0 or 3. But that aside, kickback gives you the room to identify exactly. The compression built into the RKCB responses is designed to give you as much room as possible when starting with 4NT, when suits other than spades are trumps. This is not the case with kickback.

As asker would not be asking for the Q unless he was going on to ask for kings if teller had the Q, then it makes sense for the response to the queen ask to be the next step to deny the Q, but to go on to give the king response if you do have the Q.

[fromageGB]

CSGibson, on 2012-June-06, 21:40, said:

Our rules for denying the Q are also clear, and facilitate playing in 4N - the cheaper bid between returning to our suit or NT denies the Queen.

Mmm. Sounds good, but this can only happen in just one suit, when the suit is clubs, and only when the ace reply is the first step. 2 steps and you have had it. A bit limited. When it is the second step - or the first step when diamonds are trumps - 4NT is the Q asking bid itself, so the reply must be higher.

[fromageGB]

jillybean, on 2012-June-06, 19:41, said:

Do you play that the second step is King ask ?

Sorry, you have asked this twice with no answer it seems.

It depends on whether you want anything beyond a K ask. If you have a "3rd round ask" (whatever that is), as mentioned by quiddity who does't play kickback, then I think you would need to, so that there is space for the other asks and their replies. But for me, the K ask is the last ask, and there is no need for anything other than to use the same asking suit as used for aces. This keeps it simple and unforgettable. If 4♦ asks for aces, then 5♦ asks for kings. There is room to show all specific kings and still stop in 6♣ when any K is missing. So there is no need to have a different asking suit that may be misinterpreted.

[JLOGIC]

I prefer the rule that 4N is never an offer.

If the queen is unknown step 1=Q ask, step 2=king ask, confirming all keycards. Signing off in your suit is not a step.

Jilly, why are you playing kickback? I like kickback in very serious partnerships where you know how to use all of the room you gain, and you will also basically never have an accident. It is very good for grand slam bidding because of the room saved, and it's good for slam bidding in many auctions, but if you are ever having accidents you are negating your entire edge. If you don't know how to use all of the room, you have very little gain anyways. And this is from someone who is more pro-kickback than the average expert. I really think your life would be easier/better if you quit playing it.

[jillybean]

Hi Justin. I'm playing kickback in my one, serious partnership only, with everyone else I play bog standard 1430.
I want to play it because I really like the room you gain in slam bidding. I have also said to my partner that we need
to sort it out or drop it, the mistakes are too costly.

[CSGibson]

fromageGB, on 2012-June-07, 13:26, said:

Mmm. Sounds good, but this can only happen in just one suit, when the suit is clubs, and only when the ace reply is the first step. 2 steps and you have had it. A bit limited. When it is the second step - or the first step when diamonds are trumps - 4NT is the Q asking bid itself, so the reply must be higher.

We play the cheapest return to NT or our suit in general is the denial bid in all Q/K asks in kickback, so it isn't as though we have to remember a special rule different from our normal structure.

[JLOGIC]

jillybean, on 2012-June-07, 14:03, said:

Hi Justin. I'm playing kickback in my one, serious partnership only, with everyone else I play bog standard 1430.
I want to play it because I really like the room you gain in slam bidding. I have also said to my partner that we need
to sort it out or drop it, the mistakes are too costly.

Good to hear, sounds like youre doing the right things

[jillybean]

CSGibson, on 2012-June-06, 21:40, said:

In the partnership where I play kickback, we have the agreement that in this specific auction, where 4♦ is kickback for clubs & gets a 4♠ response, that 4N is a Q ask. In all other minor suit kickback auctions, 4N by the kickback initiator is an offer to play for us. If we did not discuss this auction, however, I'm pretty sure that my partner and I would have been on different pages the first time it came up.

edit: The reason we came to this agreement was that, especially playing matchpoints, it felt like it was important to be able to stop in 4N, except in this specific auction where stopping in 5C when we didn't have the Q became the biggest priority. The way we handle all other minor suit kickback auctions is that the first (non-4N, non 5 of our minor) step is the Q ask, and the next step guarantees all the keycards and asks for specific kings. Our rules for denying the Q are also clear, and facilitate playing in 4N - the cheaper bid between returning to our suit or NT denies the Queen.

Chris, after 1C 1S 2C 4D* 4N* - can responder pass to play in 4N?

[mike777]

jillybean, on 2012-June-07, 21:15, said:

Chris, after 1C 1S 2C 4D* 4N* - can responder pass to play in 4N?

noooo


4nt is 2 without queen

again 4nt is never natural, to play.

if you want to gamble and pass 4nt fair enough but 4nt is never natural to play.

I just hope grand is not cold.

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2012-June-07, 21:20, said:

noooo


4nt is 2 without queen

again 4nt is never natural, to play.

if you want to gamble and pass 4nt fair enough but 4nt is never natural to play.

I just hope grand is not cold.

I understand 4N is not natural However, if responder was going to convert a 4♥ response to 4N, to play, then a pass of a 4N KB response is possible.

[CSGibson]

jillybean, on 2012-June-07, 21:15, said:

Chris, after 1C 1S 2C 4D* 4N* - can responder pass to play in 4N?

Yes, the keycard asker can pass to play in 4N, assuming that wasn't the right answer for slam aspirations - or at least, that's the way I play it. However I would be hard pressed to find hands that, after opener has made one rebid, can both jump immediately to keycard and be confident in signing off in 4N after the ask - I'm sure they exist, but I think they would be very rare. Perhaps KQJx KQx AQJ QJx would perpetrate an auction like that.

[jillybean]

Thanks and yes, my example of an auction is not the best.

[fromageGB]

JLOGIC, on 2012-June-07, 13:46, said:

If you don't know how to use all of the room, you have very little gain anyways. And this is from someone who is more pro-kickback than the average expert. I really think your life would be easier/better if you quit playing it.

Justin, I don't understand this. Non-experts like myself have not had complex bidding sequences that show all there is to know about the hand by the time you reach 4 of the agreed minor, and want to ask for aces when considering a small slam, and then kings when looking for a grand slam. If you don't play kickback but play RKCB, a 2 KC reply commits you to the small slam when you are not suitable to play in 5NT. I like the ability to stop in 5 of the minor. Again, with clubs as trumps even a one KC reply takes you too high when you were looking for two.

If your rules are such that you never mistake a kickback ask, then it surely has to be a big improvement for non-experts. And of course it is easier if you use it all the time for every suit.

[blackshoe]

fromageGB, on 2012-June-08, 04:22, said:

And of course it is easier if you use it all the time for every suit.

"What's in a name?" Still, IMO, if you only play "Kickback" for the minors, and play that 4NT is the ask with either major as trumps, then you aren't playing Kickback, you're playing Redwood. "Kickback for the minors" is a misnomer.

[jillybean]

Chris, one more question. What are your 5♦ and 5♠ continuations after 4S kickback and a 4N response?
...
4♥:4♠*
4N:5♣ Queen ask
....:5♦ King ask ?
....5♥ signoff
....5♠ ?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

jillybean, on 2012-June-08, 07:55, said:

Chris, one more question. What are your 5♦ and 5♠ continuations after 4S kickback and a 4N response?
...
4♥:4♠*
4N:5♣ Queen ask
....:5♦ King ask ?
....5♥ signoff
....5♠ ?

Let me take a crack at it:

♥ are trump:

4H - 4S! ( kickback-RKC )
4NT - ??
......... 5C ( next step ) = ♥Q-ask
......... 5D ( 2nd step ) = K-ask ( cheapest specific K reply )
......... 5H = sign-off
......... 5S = 3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask for ♠ since you skipped past the K-ask
.........5NT = undefined here
......... 6C = 3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask for ♣
......... 6D = 3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask for ♦

If the reply to 4S! had been 5D or 5H, then 5NT! becomes the "3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask for ♠ ( as we learned from Zelandakh back in February
[ http://www.bridgebas...__1#entry616493 ] .

[CSGibson]

jillybean, on 2012-June-08, 07:55, said:

Chris, one more question. What are your 5♦ and 5♠ continuations after 4S kickback and a 4N response?
...
4♥:4♠*
4N:5♣ Queen ask
....:5♦ King ask ?
....5♥ signoff
....5♠ ?

5D is a specific K ask (5H denies any K)
5S asks for 3rd round control of spades for grand.

edit: as noticed, I got the denial response wrong originally, laziness on my part. It's now fixed

[jillybean]

Thanks

[TWO4BRIDGE]

CSGibson, on 2012-June-08, 10:22, said:

5D is a specific K ask (5N denies any K)
5S asks for 3rd round control of spades for grand.

For the question jilly asked ( in post # 35 ):
♥ are trump..

4H - 4S! ( kickback-RKC )
4NT - 5D ( yes, this is the specific K-ask...2nd step) and the replies are:
??
.. 5H = NO outside K
.. 5S = ♠K
..5NT = K of the "asking suit", ♦ ( Kantar rule-of-thumb, not mine )
.. 6C = ♣ K