[patroclo]

Suggest your auction

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[manudude03]

For me:

1NT-3D (both minors GF)
4D-4H
4S-5C
5H-6D*

*given the known wasted values in spades, grand is too unlikely.

[ahydra]

I think South has to take control:

1D (weak NT, 4cM) - 3C (fit jump)
3NT - 4D (RKC diamonds)
4S (0 or 3) - 5D (ask kings)
5NT (CK or both major kings) - 6C (ask 3rd round club control)
6D (nope) - pass

Had to make up the 5NT bid there (and possibly the 5D call as well - better check that with partner!!), though I'd say showing the CK was a sensible use for it since 6D should be the negative response. My first attempt with North being captain was hopeless, not surprisingly given North has no idea what South has.

ahydra

[Cyberyeti]

I'd be in 7 if I played my usual system (weak no trump so starting with 1♦), S would get to find out that N had 4 diamonds and no longer suit, 3 aces and the K♣, but not how many clubs he had.

Starting with a strong no trump, and playing the sort of method I habitually use over my weak no trump (it's actually the same auction if N was missing A♠).

1N-2♠(one or both minors)-3♣(4+♦)-4♠(exclusion)-5♦(2 without)-5♠-6♣-

and again I know about the important cards, but not how many clubs partner has, so I'd probably bid 7.

[lycier]

I play minor suit stayman over 1nt.
1nt----2♠(MSS)----3♦(4 card ♦)----4♠(exclusion DRKCB)----4nt(3 key card for minors,deny Q of any minors)----7♦.

Because I have 6 card ♣ suit, opener answer 4nt showed doubletons of ♣K X at least in his ♣ suit,so CQ is a umimportant card actually. To bid 7♦ is a reasonable auction.

[Fluffy]

I would show minors more or less like others (in my case 2♠-3♣-3♦) and then it comes to north

aces are good to play suit, and not that awesome as stoppers, take aso into account that double fit and I will bid 4♦, althou my MP bias is telling me that going over 3NT is insane, but this hand must be worth it.

south now is worth 5♠ exclusion IMO, wich warrants at least 6. Depending on agreements this will ideally be 6-1 keycard blackwood (IE 5 keycards ♥A, ♦AK, ♣AK) and south will commit to 7♦ since the worst case (9 card club fit with ♣Q missing) is already above 50%, and ♣Kx or ♣KQx are possible, even ♣Kxxx is not unthinkable.


E-Ws mirror shape means that after trying your best to ruff out major suits you come out to the conclusion that nobody has more vacant spaces than the other and thus guess clubs.

[Zelandakh]

In the OP case with silent opps (and with some fairly close decisions along the way):

1♣ = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any
... - 1♠ = 0-3 in both majors, GF
2♦ = 15-17 bal, no 5M
... - 2NT = both minors, at least 5-5
3♦ = nat
... - 4♠ = XRKCB (should I be playing this as 6kc?)
5♦ = 2 without ♦Q
... - 5♥ = K ask
5NT = ♣K
... - 6♦ (should 6♣ here ask for the ♣Q or the ♠A?)

However, it seems far more interesting to bid this hand with some interference. How would the strong NTers bid after a 2♣ (majors) overcall and a direct 4♠ raise from West? That is: 1NT - (2♣) - ? - (4♠). How about if the overcall that showed the majors was 2♦ or 2♥ rather than 2♣?

I guess the equivalent auction after a strong club would be something like
1♣ - (X) - 1♠ - (4♠);
P - (P) - 4NT - (P);
5♦ - (P) - 6♦
but the inteference has certainly robbed some degree of confidence.

To ahydra, suppose your opps play a 2♥ overcall of 1♦ as 5+ spades, 4+ hearts and weak. How would you handle things if East overcalled your 1♦ opening with this 2♥ and West raised to 4♠ at their first turn?

To lycier, is the ♣Q really an unimportant card in a 9 card fit for grand? If we seriously believe this, why do we not show the queen with a 9 card fit as well as with a 10 card fit? Is something under 60% always enough for you to bid a grand? Once you have decided to bid it, why not check back whether partner has the ♠A since 7NT is then probably better, not exposing you to a potential club ruff?

Finally, does anyone have a (non-relay) toy to distinguish between ♣Kx and ♣Kxx here without getting potentially overboard?

[phil_20686]

I am pretty sure that after

1N-3D (both minors GF)
3S-4c (3S=diamond support)

I would eventually end up in grand. I would locate the two red suit aces and the club K, and just hope that partner either had Kx clubs or Kxxx clubs or the club Q.

I might just bid exclusion over 3S tbh, this would clearly be a situation where we count the club K as a keycard.

[kenrexford]

1NT-2♠(one or both minors)
2NT(prefers diamonds)-3♠(both minors, diamonds agreed, short spades, slam interest)
4♣(cue)-4♠(Exclusion)
4NT(3*)-5♣(Q?)
6♦(nope, and not K-x)-P



*6KCE used

[TWO4BRIDGE]

ahydra, on 2012-November-10, 14:07, said:

I think South has to take control:

1D (weak NT, 4cM) - 3C (fit jump)
3NT - 4D (RKC diamonds)
4S (0 or 3) - 5D (ask kings)
5NT (CK or both major kings) - 6C (ask 3rd round club control)
6D (nope) - pass

Had to make up the 5NT bid there (and possibly the 5D call as well - better check that with partner!! ), though I'd say showing the CK was a sensible use for it since 6D should be the negative response. My first attempt with North being captain was hopeless, not surprisingly given North has no idea what South has.

ahydra

If you use 4D! = Minorwood, and 4D! is correct here, then if you want to ask for kings, you have to use something else besides 5D - - normally it is kickback-for-kings ( 5H! ) - - since 5D is reserved for sign-off .

[mike777]

1nt=2s
3d=3h
3s=4c
4h=5d
6c=7d


2s=mss
3h=cue
4h=rkc in d
6c=KC grand try

[SteveMoe]

Two variations suggest themselves:
1N-3♦ (55+ GF)
3♥ - 3♠
4♦ Minorwood - 5♣ (2+Q)
5♦ - 5♥
5 NT - 6♦/NT - Not have ♣Q
Pass

1N-3♠ (splinter to BOTH minors...GF+)
4♦ Minorwood - 5♣ (2+Q)
5♦ - 5♥
5 NT - 6♦/NT - Not have ♣Q
Pass

Not like the ♣ finesse for 7

[silvr bull]

In a modified K-S structure, we bid inverted minors so our auction would get off to a great start:
1♦ (1NT is 12-14 HCP)
2♦ (strong and forcing. We jump raise with a weak hand and good trump)

2♥ should show the ♥A (or maybe the ♥KQ) because play in 4♥ is unlikely
3♣

3♠
4♥ Denies the ♣AK

5♣ Good news because this denies the ♠AK
6♣ Club length?

??? I don't know here if either of us can make the leap to 7D

[Fluffy]

kenrexford, on 2012-November-15, 13:45, said:

1NT-2♠(one or both minors)
2NT(prefers diamonds)-3♠(both minors, diamonds agreed, short spades, slam interest)
4♣(cue)-4♠(Exclusion)
4NT(3*)-5♣(Q?)
6♦(nope, and not K-x)-P



*6KCE used

I can understand that 5 clubs asks for second round control in clubs, but why is the negative a jump to slam when 5♦ is avaible?

[kenrexford]

Fluffy, on 2012-November-15, 23:52, said:

I can understand that 5 clubs asks for second round control in clubs, but why is the negative a jump to slam when 5♦ is avaible?

Eh, probably right.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

kenrexford, on 2012-November-15, 13:45, said:

1NT-2♠(one or both minors)
2NT(prefers diamonds)-3♠(both minors, diamonds agreed, short spades, slam interest)
4♣(cue)-4♠(Exclusion)
4NT(3*)-5♣(Q?)
6♦(nope, and not K-x)-P

*6KCE used

I agree with your treatment... including the 6 Ace key card excluding the ♠-Ace .

But after the 4NT reply ( 0/3 ) isn't 5C the ♦Q-ask ? ( but the "asker" already has that ) :

After 4NT - ??
.............. 5C = ♦-Q-ask ( next step )
.............. 5H = specific K-ask ( 2nd non-trump step or just use 5S )
.............. 6C = 3rd Round Ctrl-ask in ♣

[ Of course, after the 6C-ask, the answer is still the same ... 6♦ ]

[kenrexford]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-November-16, 09:13, said:

I agree with your treatment... including the 6 Ace key card excluding the ♠-Ace .

But after the 4NT reply ( 0/3 ) isn't 5C the ♦Q-ask ? ( but the "asker" already has that ) :

After 4NT - ??
.............. 5C = ♦-Q-ask ( next step )
.............. 5H = specific K-ask ( 2nd non-trump step or just use 5S )
.............. 6C = 3rd Round Ctrl-ask in ♣

[ Of course the answer is still the same ... 6♦ ]

I left out part of the discussion because I was typing too fast.

My "key card" ask here is an unusual form of ask. Essentially, I was using what I would call "Exclusion 6-Key-Card Key Card Ask." In other words, I am asking about "key cards," with the "key cards" being the Aces of hearts, diamonds, and clubs, plus the two minor Kings. Thus, the same five key cards are in focus, just replacing the King of clubs for the Ace of spades. So, technically it is 5KCE, in a sense. "Exclusion 5-key-card Medium Key Card Ask." So far, nothing tricky.

But, I am also using a wrap-around approach. In that approach, I "wrap-around answer" if I have the higher of option (if "0 or 3" then 3 or if "1 or 4" then 4) and also have the trump Queen. So, for instance, with "3 plus the Queen," I would bid above 5♥ (because two with the Queen already is forced above 5♦), as I would with 4+Q.

In other words, if the answer to Exclusion is better than the Exclusion answer that would force slam, I immediately bid past the signoff with that holding and the trump Queen. This approach saves space, IMO.

Because of this, 4NT showed "three key cards," as always, but it also denied the diamond Queen. Had Responder held the diamond Queen, he could bid something above 5♠ immediately. Thus, after 4NT, 5♣ would not ask for the trump Queen (which was already denied) but would instead ask for the club Queen (which had not yet been shown).

Now, I initially thought that 6♦ should deny the club Queen (or a doubleton). But, maybe 5♦ as available should deny the Queen but be silent as to the doubleton, as other cards might replace the doubleton. For example, maybe Opener has 3253, where a run of three hearts might allow a pitch of the third club? Give Responder one more heart (minors 5-5) and Opener A-Q tight in hearts?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Thx for the clarification .

[PhilKing]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-November-15, 14:04, said:

If you use 4D! = Minorwood, and 4D! is correct here, then if you want to ask for kings, you have to use something else besides 5D - - normally it is kickback-for-kings ( 5H! ) - - since 5D is reserved for sign-off .

It's not considered the done thing to sign off opposite 3 aces.

Partner passes with none, otherwise he shows kings. On planet kickback, we can ask ask for kings with something lower when we are still two steps under five of the suit.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

PhilKing, on 2012-November-16, 13:52, said:

It's not considered the done thing to sign off opposite 3 aces.

Partner passes with none, otherwise he shows kings. On planet kickback, we can ask ask for kings with something lower when we are still two steps under five of the suit.

On my planet kickback after an attempted sign-off, if replier has the higher # of keycards, then he answers as if the trump-Q were asked for .

♦ are trump :

4NT! ( 0/3 ) - 5D ( attempted sign-off )
??
..pass = zero keycards
.. 5H = 3 keycards and ♦Q + ♥K
.. 5S = 3 keycards and ♦Q + ♠K, no ♥K
..5NT = 3 keycards, NO ♦Q, but have outside King(s)
.............this way you can ask for Specific Kings next with 6C if warranted.
.. 6C = 3 keycards and ♦Q + ♣K, NO major Kings
.. 6D = 3 keycards but NO ♦Q and NO outside Kings.