should we always show hearts?
#1
Posted 2012-November-19, 00:09
Partner's responses are...
.....1N-semiforcing
.....2C-artificial GF
.....2D-hearts, 6+ hearts OR GI with 5
.....2H-constructive raise
.....2S-weak raise
.....2N-LR
ok, so there's always been the dilemma of 1S-1N, 2H auctions when responder has a fit. Easy to get too high with a courtesy raise and easy to miss game.
So seeing as how responder can't have three spades for his 1N and can't have six hearts and can't have five hearts unless less than GI...
how about passing 1N with 5S/4H and 10-11? Then 1S-1N, 2H shows either five hearts OR 12-15 OR perhaps a 6/4 (haven't figured that one out yet)
Responder then could strain to raise with a fit (say 9-11) or bid game with a four-fit and 12-13 hcps.
I've looked at some hands and find that sometimes I want to be in 1N and sometimes in a major. There's a fair number of ridiculous examples for each.
Any opinions on this idea?
#2
Posted 2012-November-19, 02:23
I'd say a semi-forcing 1nt means that a lot of 5=4=2=2 and even some 5=4=(31) are going to find that 1nt is the best place to play when you are 10-11.
#3
Posted 2012-November-19, 04:54
1♠ - 1NT
2♣ = 4+ diamonds
2♦ = 4+ hearts
2♥ = 6+ spades
2♠ = 4+ clubs
2NT = whatever, max 5044 perhaps
3♣♦♥ = Precision jumps (5-5 max)
It seems to me that missing game with 11hcp 54(31) opposite 13hcp 24(43) would be pretty painful, at least at IMPs.
#4
Posted 2012-November-19, 09:49
Mbodell, on 2012-November-19, 02:23, said:
I'd say a semi-forcing 1nt means that a lot of 5=4=2=2 and even some 5=4=(31) are going to find that 1nt is the best place to play when you are 10-11.
It depends on whether we're vulnerable or not. Vulnerable, 1N is more constructive and we bid it when we think we can improve the contract (possible game or better part score). Maybe 8+ misfitting though pd and I may have slightly different takes on that. I mean, why disturb 1S is that's our best likely spot? NV could be a psyche I suppose (0 count) though we've never actually done that.
#5
Posted 2012-November-19, 09:53
Zelandakh, on 2012-November-19, 04:54, said:
1♠ - 1NT
2♣ = 4+ diamonds
2♦ = 4+ hearts
2♥ = 6+ spades
2♠ = 4+ clubs
2NT = whatever, max 5044 perhaps
3♣♦♥ = Precision jumps (5-5 max)
It seems to me that missing game with 11hcp 54(31) opposite 13hcp 24(43) would be pretty painful, at least at IMPs.
Well, that's interesting. I suppose then we'd pass on showing clubs unless we were max? Can you tell me more about the pros and cons of this? I can see that opener will likely get another shot at bidding. Anyone else tried this? awm?
#6
Posted 2012-November-19, 10:07
Over 1S, I experimented with a few other things -- like having 1NTF promise or almost promise 4 hearts, so that 2m could deny 4 hearts, and 2H could be an artificial GF. I liked how it handled the heart suits, but didn't overly like how it handled the weak minor suit hands. I never got it working quite the way I wanted it to.
#7
Posted 2012-November-19, 10:19
straube, on 2012-November-19, 09:53, said:
I've played it a bit and it's not too bad. I think you can handle the spade club hands by playing 2♣ as two-way - diamonds or max with clubs. Then Two Spades is cleaned up.
#8
Posted 2012-November-19, 14:26
#9
Posted 2012-November-19, 15:32
On the original question, I suspect you will do better bidding 2h than passing. Probably possible to sim this to some extent.
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
#10
Posted 2012-November-19, 16:12
To awm, I'll look at some more hands. Hard to really tell though because it's frequently not obvious whether 1N or 2M is a superior contract on these deals. I think, however, doing this would find us a lot more heart games and that's the point of it. 1S-1N, 2H would almost demand a raise with a fitting hand.
#11
Posted 2012-November-19, 16:44
If you are really that worried about this you could play what the swedes play (I call it swedish gazilli), that 2C is gazilli like even in the context of strong club, where 14-15 counts start with 2C. I don't really recommend this but it works for them. The downside being you cannot play 2C obviously.
You could also play 3C artificial over 2H if you want two ways to invite but again this is more common playing standard where the range is so wide on 2H.
I think passing with a 10 or 11 count and 5-4 in the majors is not a reasonable option. For starters, you might just have a game if partner bids it and it is probably really bad for partscore bidding to play 1N instead of a heart fit when you're that weak. I would rather play 3H than 1N and I will often get to play 2H in a fit or 2S in a 5-2 which should be better.
You could also stop opening light but I suspect like me you find it to be a big winner. It is not shocking that in an uncontested auction where you have marginal values that opening light will work against you, you have widened your range and it will cause you to sometimes get too high or too low. This is the tradeoff you make for the benefits of opening light.
#12
Posted 2012-November-19, 17:31
So 1S-1N, 2H-2N is a fail
1S-1N, 2H-2S is likely not a big improvement
1S-1N, 2H-3H is likely an improvement, but maybe not a big one
I'm also trying to actually get responder to raise more often. I'd like that courtesy bump because opener possibly even has five hearts and a medium hand or perhaps four and a maximum.
Anyway, I think most folks think this is a bad idea and that's the input I was looking for. Thanks for weighing in.
#13
Posted 2012-November-20, 02:01
#14
Posted 2012-November-20, 07:56
Zelandakh, on 2012-November-20, 02:01, said:
So does,opener pass with minimum clubs?
#15
Posted 2012-November-20, 08:55
Note: I do not really like passing 1NT with unbalanced hands, even when minimum. I think you improve the contract by showing the second suit more often than not. Sometimes it is a price worth paying not to improve the contract. I would be worried that this situation is too common to be worth it though. You basically have to work out which problems you can live with and which you want to solve. There is not enough space to have everything (even when playing 1NT as the relay).