[ArtK78]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-January-13, 17:29, said:

Because it's actually closer to the Islamic view ? My heritage is Jewish although I don't consider myself to be and I was never taught any of this. From what I remember the bit about god putting you back together is not the Jewish view as they go to extremes if somebody is blown up to retrieve all the bits, whereas I understood that some fringe Islamic sects (not sure about the mainstream) believed that Allah would put you back together to make use of the 24 virgins awaiting you in heaven if you took some infidels with you.

Trust me, nothing that I read in 32's posts is part of the Jewish heritage.

[32519]

 ArtK78, on 2013-January-13, 14:47, said:

Why do I, as a Jew, feel insulted by this?

 ArtK78, on 2013-January-13, 17:21, said:

That is certainly true. But I think it is more because every post seems to be characterizing the "God of the Jews" in a very disparaging manner. Not that I should feel responsible for what happened several thousand years ago. But there are many who think I should.

 ArtK78, on 2013-January-13, 23:02, said:

Trust me, nothing that I read in 32's posts is part of the Jewish heritage.

Art I want to encourage you to read this book:

THE RABBI FROM BURBANK
Isidor Zwirn and Bob Owen
ISBN 1-57562-729-9

THE RABBI FROM BURBANK tells the fascinating story of Rabbi Isidor Zwirn. Here is an extract from chapter 5 of this book:

Once, while I was taking a class at a Jewish educational institution, the question was raised concerning the Messianic prophecies. The professor responded, “Do not attempt to study any of these prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah on your own. It’s too dangerous. Don’t study them unless you do so with a rabbi who is able to interpret them for you.”

Further on in chapter 5 he writes:

All this seemed strange to me. The coming of the Messiah is anticipated at every Jewish Passover Seder. We sing and read of the Messiah during each Sabbath and High Holy Day celebration. And the Messiah’s coming is a looked-forward-to event in the heart of every Jew. Still our educational institutions were silent on the subject. I didn’t understand.

Isidor Zwirn then embarked on his own independent research of the scriptures. After months he came to the conclusion that Yeshuah of the Christians is also the Messiah of the Jews. Upon revealing his conclusion to his family he immediately became an outcast. They all believed that he became a Christian. This was his response…
“No. I’m not a Christian,” I would try again. “I’m no more a Christian than Jesus was…or Peter…or Paul. They were all Jews. And I’m a Jew. The only difference is that I believe that Jesus, or Yeshuah, is the Messiah, just like the disciples did. Just like those believers in Jerusalem. And they weren’t Christians, but Jewish believers in the Messiah. It was the Gentile followers of Christ who were known as Christians.”
The Jewish community never understood and he remained an outcast.

When the Christian churches heard about his acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah they began inviting him to give his “testimony” on how that had happened. When he related his story of how he had come to Jesus completely on his own, they didn’t believe him. They insisted that it was absolutely necessary to accept Jesus “by faith,” which was the “regular formula.” Gradually Isidor Zwirn was excommunicated and hated by all. Neither his own Jewish people nor the Christians would accept him.

 ArtK78, on 2013-January-13, 14:47, said:

Why do I, as a Jew, feel insulted by this?

The God of the Jews is the True God. Others are an offshoot.

[32519]

 Vampyr, on 2013-January-13, 12:33, said:

If God creates the objective moral law, what reason do I have to obey it? Is it because God will punish or reward me after I am dead? I mean, this is the moral reasoning of a child in kindergarten; so I think there must be something more. What is it?

I'm not sure which part of my posts you don't understand. Every single person who ever walked planet earth will one day glorify the God of the Jews.
Your reward: Cooperate with him and you get to do so the easy way.
Your punishment: Fight him or remain in total denial and you get to do so the hard way.

[Vampyr]

 32519, on 2013-January-13, 23:52, said:

I'm not sure which part of my posts you don't understand. Every single person who ever walked planet earth will one day glorify the God of the Jews.
Your reward: Cooperate with him and you get to do so the easy way.
Your punishment: Fight him or remain in total denial and you get to do so the hard way.

The comments you quoted (with your own emphasis) did not refer to your posts. But thanks, as always, for sharing.

[mikeh]

 32519, on 2013-January-13, 23:52, said:

I'm not sure which part of my posts you don't understand. Every single person who ever walked planet earth will one day glorify the God of the Jews.
Your reward: Cooperate with him and you get to do so the easy way.
Your punishment: Fight him or remain in total denial and you get to do so the hard way.

What a psychopathic concept of a god. An evil, sadistic asshole who demands unthinking obedience and groveling, or else he will make damn sure you suffer a horrible price. I am truly sorry for anyone who thinks, seriously, that such an entity exists.

I don't assert with assurance that no 'god' exists, in the sense of some concept that exists outside of space and time and consciously created the universe, since there is insufficient evidence to be certain one way or the other. I can assert with absolute confidence that the anthropomorphic nightmare that 32 worships is the product of some seriously disturbed minds.

Note, I am not accusing 32 of being seriously disturbed...32 may be a victim here, of others. One cannot be interested in what goes on in society without knowing that there are some very twisted, but plausible and smooth-talking religious leaders out there, spouting exactly this kind of rubbish.

[diana_eva]

I didn't plan to post here at all, but for what is worth I voted "Strongly believe". I don't really care to explain why and how I got there but I can confirm I had some "spiritual feelings" as Fluffy worded it.

32's posts became quite disturbing to me and this is just to say I would never try to define my perception of God, or convince others how awesome it is. I just hope 32's style won't become associated with everyone else who voted "strongly bellieve".

[Vampyr]

 32519, on 2013-January-13, 23:43, said:

Gradually Isidor Zwirn was excommunicated and hated by all. Neither his own Jewish people nor the Christians would accept him.

He should have joined Jews for Jesus. They would have accepted him.

[Vampyr]

 diana_eva, on 2013-January-14, 04:44, said:

32's posts became quite disturbing to me and this is just to say I would never try to define my perception of God, or convince others how awesome it is. I just hope 32's style won't become associated with everyone else who voted "strongly bellieve".

I think 32's posts have been disturbing to everyone. Don't worry, no one thinks he speaks for all of the believers.

[hrothgar]

 Vampyr, on 2013-January-14, 04:53, said:

I think 32's posts have been disturbing to everyone. Don't worry, no one thinks he speaks for all of the believers.

I'm more than half way convinced that 32519 is one of the most epic instances of internet trolling that I have ever seen

It would be sad to discover that he's actually just insane...

[Trinidad]

 diana_eva, on 2013-January-14, 04:44, said:

I didn't plan to post here at all, but for what is worth I voted "Strongly believe". I don't really care to explain why and how I got there but I can confirm I had some "spiritual feelings" as Fluffy worded it.

32's posts became quite disturbing to me and this is just to say I would never try to define my perception of God, or convince others how awesome it is. I just hope 32's style won't become associated with everyone else who voted "strongly bellieve".

No need to worry. 32 is only associated to 32. His posts don't make me worried what people think about bridge players either... I am sure there will be a '32' among soccer fans or perhaps even among atheists.

Rik

[mgoetze]

 hrothgar, on 2013-January-14, 05:26, said:

I'm more than half way convinced that 32519 is one of the most epic instances of internet trolling that I have ever seen

I tried to tell people not to feed the troll back on page 9 and all I have to show for it is 4 upvotes.

[BunnyGo]

 32519, on 2013-January-13, 23:43, said:

Art I want to encourage you to read this book:

THE RABBI FROM BURBANK
Isidor Zwirn and Bob Owen
ISBN 1-57562-729-9

THE RABBI FROM BURBANK tells the fascinating story of Rabbi Isidor Zwirn. Here is an extract from chapter 5 of this book:

Once, while I was taking a class at a Jewish educational institution, the question was raised concerning the Messianic prophecies. The professor responded, “Do not attempt to study any of these prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah on your own. It’s too dangerous. Don’t study them unless you do so with a rabbi who is able to interpret them for you.”

Further on in chapter 5 he writes:

All this seemed strange to me. The coming of the Messiah is anticipated at every Jewish Passover Seder. We sing and read of the Messiah during each Sabbath and High Holy Day celebration. And the Messiah’s coming is a looked-forward-to event in the heart of every Jew. Still our educational institutions were silent on the subject. I didn’t understand.

Isidor Zwirn then embarked on his own independent research of the scriptures. After months he came to the conclusion that Yeshuah of the Christians is also the Messiah of the Jews. Upon revealing his conclusion to his family he immediately became an outcast. They all believed that he became a Christian. This was his response…
“No. I’m not a Christian,” I would try again. “I’m no more a Christian than Jesus was…or Peter…or Paul. They were all Jews. And I’m a Jew. The only difference is that I believe that Jesus, or Yeshuah, is the Messiah, just like the disciples did. Just like those believers in Jerusalem. And they weren’t Christians, but Jewish believers in the Messiah. It was the Gentile followers of Christ who were known as Christians.”
The Jewish community never understood and he remained an outcast.

When the Christian churches heard about his acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah they began inviting him to give his “testimony” on how that had happened. When he related his story of how he had come to Jesus completely on his own, they didn’t believe him. They insisted that it was absolutely necessary to accept Jesus “by faith,” which was the “regular formula.” Gradually Isidor Zwirn was excommunicated and hated by all. Neither his own Jewish people nor the Christians would accept him.


The God of the Jews is the True God. Others are an offshoot.

Excuse me, but I must finally take offense. Please don't lecture us about our religion. You may believe whatever you want, but leave us out of it.

[zasanya]

 Phil, on 2012-December-19, 13:38, said:

Just to have a little holiday fun...

See questions

Answers are private. Just between you and your God (or your conscience )

The holidays were over long ago. The fun a few days ago. Where is the moderator?

[32519]

Luke 6:22-23
"Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man."
"… For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets."

Luke 6:26
"Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way."

[32519]

 BunnyGo, on 2013-January-14, 19:18, said:

Excuse me, but I must finally take offense. Please don't lecture us about our religion. You may believe whatever you want, but leave us out of it.

Sorry BunnyGo, but your own Jewish writings leave me no choice. It can be found in Ezekiel chapter 3:17-21

17 "Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman to the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from My mouth,warn them from Me.
18 "When I say to the wicked, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.
19 "Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself.
20 "Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.
21 "However, if you have warned the righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself."

Jesus repeatedly referred to himself as the Son of man. Go look it up for yourself.

Ezekiel 18:32
"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

For the record: I wasn’t lecturing you or anyone else. It was some recommended reading regarding one of your Rabbi’s. Your choice is simple; read it or don’t read it.

[ArtK78]

 32519, on 2013-January-14, 22:30, said:

Luke 6:22-23
"Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man."
"… For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets."

Luke 6:26
"Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way."

You are truly blessed.

[ArtK78]

 32519, on 2013-January-14, 22:49, said:

For the record: I wasn’t lecturing you or anyone else. It was some recommended reading regarding one of your Rabbi’s. Your choice is simple; read it or don’t read it.

Classic Jewish saying: If you have two Rabbis you will get three opinions.

This was not one of MY Rabbis. This is someone who may have been a Rabbi and may yet be a Rabbi, but he is certainly not my Rabbi.

You seem to be equating a Rabbi with a Priest or Bishop or Cardinal - someone in a position to make pronouncements in the name of the faith. There is no such structure in Judaism. A Rabbi, in the strictest sense, is a teacher. And the opinion of one Rabbi is not any better than the opinion of another Rabbi. Or, in the case of the Rabbi that you have cited, his opinion is not something I care to recognize at all.

[Scarabin]

 32519, on 2013-January-14, 22:30, said:

Luke 6:22-23
"Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man."
"… For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets."

Luke 6:26
"Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way."

I do not think you are justified in quoting this. As far as I can judge, anyone replying to your posts has shown you considerable courtesy, despite your posts being provocative and aggressive.

I am puzzled however that you have made pronouncements which I do not recognise as bible-based or in accord with the doctrine of any church or cult I have encountered. Are you a member of a recognised church or is your religion based entirely on your personal experience and beliefs?

I note that you criticise virtually all existing translations of the bible. Do you base this on knowledge of ancient greek and hebrew languages, and do you have access to original manuscripts as primary sources?

[Trinidad]

Come on guys, everybody is entitled to his believes and opinions. I think we should respect that.

But we are free to choose which opinions and believes we respectfully ignore.

Having said that, I think that -up to a certain point in time- this was one of the more civilized discussions between believers and non-believers. I strongly doubt that anybody got converted (in whatever direction), but I think the understanding between the two sides has increased a tiny little bit. No matter how small that is, I think that is something valuable.

Rik

[Fluffy]

 Trinidad, on 2013-January-15, 02:36, said:

Having said that, I think that -up to a certain point in time- this was one of the more civilized discussions between believers and non-believers. I strongly doubt that anybody got converted (in whatever direction), but I think the understanding between the two sides has increased a tiny little bit. No matter how small that is, I think that is something valuable.

Only those who truly had doubts have learnt something. Its easy to point guys on both sides who had no doubts and haven't learnt anything.