Disclosing a nonstandard 1NT opening (ACBL)
#21
Posted 2013-January-02, 02:59
#22
Posted 2013-January-02, 03:17
blackshoe, on 2013-January-01, 23:20, said:
Yes, I understand that you might do that. But I prefer an easy life.
#23
Posted 2013-January-02, 04:25
#24
Posted 2013-January-02, 05:14
#25
Posted 2013-January-02, 05:52
kenberg, on 2013-January-01, 21:27, said:
No, I wouldn't do it at that point either. I'd have already checked what their 1-level openings mean at the beginning of the round.
-- Bertrand Russell
#26
Posted 2013-January-02, 12:35
sfi, on 2013-January-01, 23:39, said:
Yes, they are. When you alert, you just say the word "Alert", and provide details if an opponent asks for an explanation. When you announce, you say the specific phrase in the alert regulations, such as the NT point range.
campboy, on 2013-January-02, 04:25, said:
You're right, they don't specifically say that you can't add additional information to your announcements, beyond what's required. However, they also don't say that you can't say other things during the auction -- e.g. it would be improper to announce the meaning when partner makes a double. Such spontaneous, unrequired announcements are generally prohibited by the laws on extraneous information.
The only things you're allowed to say during an auction are the calls themselves, alerts and announcements as required by regulations, skip bid warnings as allowed/required by regulations, and questions/answers. Adding extra information to an announcement is not allowed, just as announcing a non-announceable bid is not appropriate.
#27
Posted 2013-January-02, 12:43
barmar, on 2013-January-02, 12:35, said:
You're right, they don't specifically say that you can't add additional information to your announcements, beyond what's required. However, they also don't say that you can't say other things during the auction -- e.g. it would be improper to announce the meaning when partner makes a double. Such spontaneous, unrequired announcements are generally prohibited by the laws on extraneous information.
The only things you're allowed to say during an auction are the calls themselves, alerts and announcements as required by regulations, skip bid warnings as allowed/required by regulations, and questions/answers. Adding extra information to an announcement is not allowed, just as announcing a non-announceable bid is not appropriate.
So far as I can see, the ACBL rules don't require you to state the range only. They say "An announcement is one word or a short phrase which tells the opponents directly the meaning of partner's call.". Then they give an example of how to announce a 15-17 notrump. They dont say that "x to y" is the only form in which announcements can be made.
If we say "15-17, no 4-card major", we're not adding extra information to an announcement - that phrase in its entirety is the announcement.
#28
Posted 2013-January-02, 12:46
sfi, on 2013-January-01, 23:39, said:
Technically, proper procedure for announcements is to make the announcement and at the same time tap the alert strip or show the alert card. Nobody does either of the last two, IME (alert strips are rare to non-existent around here anyway). I'm not sure this answers your question, though.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#29
Posted 2013-January-02, 12:49
all natural 1NT openings".
#30
Posted 2013-January-02, 12:59
kenberg, on 2013-January-01, 21:27, said:
Before I would conclude anything from opener not opening 1NT, I would look at the CC what their 1NT range is. Then I expect to see unusual distributional requirements right next to the range. It would be very hard to miss.
Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not Eureka! (I found it!), but Thats funny Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#31
Posted 2013-January-02, 13:29
Trinidad, on 2013-January-02, 12:59, said:
On the ACBL CC? Right next to the range is the descriptions of 3-level responses. There's a line labeled "Other" 9 lines down and to the right, which can be used for free-form information.
There's also a "5-card Major common" checkbox. Maybe these guys could write over that with "not even close".
#32
Posted 2013-January-02, 13:30
#33
Posted 2013-January-02, 13:31
Trinidad, on 2013-January-02, 12:59, said:
Rik
Sure. If you had a magnifying glass. There's no room for it on the ACBL card, and when there's no room, folks won't write anything.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#34
Posted 2013-January-02, 13:38
blackshoe, on 2013-January-02, 13:31, said:
To be fair, most players don't have any special information about their NT opening style that needs to be disclosed; the 5-card major checkbox is the only usual variation. I'd hope that the pair playing this unusual style WOULD note it somewhere on their CC.
#35
Posted 2013-January-02, 13:44
Trinidad, on 2013-January-02, 12:59, said:
Rik
I can sometimes astound the worls with my ability to see what is in front of me. But anyway, I would not fuss. If I missed it I would miss it.
We are all supposed to read the opponent's cc carefully. Shifting tables every two rounds, I sometimes do, I sometimes don't. The auction goes 1♦-1♠-3♠-Pass. I suppose opener has a minimum. Then I notice they are playing weak no trump. I suppose he has some shape. We have to get the hand played, we have to score it, we have to move on tto the next hand and finish the round. I may notice some more words somewhere, I may not. The brain has a lot to do, and not much time to do it.
Ideally I review the auction, I review the play, I add up the high card points I have seen, I work out the distribution of the unseen hands, I review their cc to see if it all fits together, and then, if no one has yet accused me of a Sominex coup, I select a card to play. That's the theory anyway.
Back to basics: An announcement will be fine, I won't gripe.
#36
Posted 2013-January-02, 14:15
barmar, on 2013-January-02, 12:49, said:
Does the Alert Chart further define the alert procedures, or does it summarise what is defined elsewhere?
#37
Posted 2013-January-02, 14:21
Zelandakh, on 2013-January-02, 02:59, said:
I agree with this 100%. At the beginning of the round, I would announce that 1NT openings are a particular range at various seats and vulnerabilities AND THAT THEY DENY A 4-CARD MAJOR OR A 6-CARD MINOR. I would want this to be quite clear.
Then, if and when a 1NT opening comes up, I would alert it. I would not announce the range because the announcement would be an insufficent description of the bid, and if you try to make an announcement AND alert the bid your will generate a great deal of confusion.
#38
Posted 2013-January-02, 14:24
gnasher, on 2013-January-02, 14:15, said:
The chart is a summary; the procedure is definitive. If they conflict, the chart is wrong.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#39
Posted 2013-January-02, 14:31
ArtK78, on 2013-January-02, 14:21, said:
Then, if and when a 1NT opening comes up, I would alert it. I would not announce the range because the announcement would be an insufficent description of the bid, and if you try to make an announcement AND alert the bid your will generate a great deal of confusion.
It's certainly within the spirit of the rules to pre-alert this. Whether it's actually required is another question - and difficult to answer, given how ambiguous the "pre-alert" section of the alert procedure is.
I definitely agree with alerting the bid when it comes up.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#40
Posted 2013-January-02, 14:36
blackshoe, on 2013-January-02, 14:24, said:
IMO, they complement each other. There are some places where the chart has no room for details, and is just a summary. There are other places where it seems more definitive.
If there's a true contradiction, I would go by the procedure. But this case doesn't seem to be an example of that.
As for it describing the announcements using "examples", I think that just refers to the specific range, not the wording of the announcement; in the description of announcing transfers, they say "examples" because they only show the 2-level Jacoby transfers, but the wording above indicates that the same procedure also applies to 4-level Texas transfers. In other words, the form of the announcements are intended to be complete, the cases where it gets used are examples.
There's more information in the alert procedure that suggests that distribution information shouldn't be mentioned in the NT announcement. Part V has the following example:
Quote
Partner says immediately, "fourteen plus to seventeen minus."
The "plus" and "minus" apparently are due to upgrading/downgrading due to distribution, and you would presumably explain this if asked for a more detailed explanation, but you're not expected to announce it immediately.