[Fluffy]

---

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Deleted.... incorrect

[gszes]

Fluffy, on 2013-January-04, 17:13, said:

---

The 4s bid appears wrong. While you have enough to drive to game you have a club
control you are failing to show p and an easy slam can be missed. I would save 4s
for a hand like Axxx QJx QJx xxx where u are min but have a hand most likely to work
well opposite p (after the 2c bid on your right). Another option is non serious 3n when p
bids 4c you bid 4s and p will know slam is a bad idea.

Given the bidding and the announced minimum the 5c bidder should have realized you
needed all of your power outside of clubs AND it needed to be aces not quacks in order
to have a dcent shot at slam. This was probably too optimistic. If no 3n bid was available
then there was too much risk searching for slam given the bidding.

[CSGibson]

Methods are to blame. If you have a non-serious 3N available so that this (4♠) showed no slam interest in context of the auction, then this would be an easy pass of 4♠. As is, I think east is being too optimistic with no aces and values behind the kings.

[mikeh]

My initial reaction was that both were to blame with opener wearing the bulk of the blame, but as I thought more about it, I began to have a little more sympathy for opener. I don't think he was blameless, but I think that this result was because both players made mild overbids.

West has the 4th trump and the well-positioned club K, but his hand is otherwise bland and his heart holding, tho not xxx, is presumably not what partner was looking for when he choose 3♥. So I think West should have rejected the gt.

East was within his values when he bid 3♥, but should have paid more attention to the auction that followed. In particular, West didn't cue bid. West's obligation was to cue bid if at all possible, given that he was going to game anyway and that opener MIGHT have been trying for slam, rather than making a g/t.

Once West bid 4♠, opener knows that he has no diamond A, and so slam will depend not only on the trump suit but also on bringing the hearts home for no loser.

Where I had to rethink my criticism of opener was the inference, if any, to be drawn from a failure to cue 4♥. To me, a 4♥ bid might be an offer to play IF we would always support spades with say 3=4 majors. If we would always double then 4♥over 3♥ would be a cue, and the failure to make that call tells opener that he is off both red aces, so bidding 5♣ is silly.

However, I suspect that most would want to raise spades immediately, if only to bring partner into the picture if 4th seat bounces in clubs (and, on different layouts, to avoid partner choosing to pass the double).

So Opener could be forgiven for thinking that West may have the heart A, especially since he couldn't cue it with fewer than 4 cards in the suit. But there simply isn't safety here. Even if West has the heart A, slam may not fetch, and if he lacks both red Aces, there may be 5-level danger.

So I think both players took aggressive but not irrational actions and a bad contract was reached. It happens Otherwise we conservative bidders would never win anything.

[lalldonn]

It would be a total joke for west not to accept the game try IMO despite all the prior posts. Fourth trump, doubleton heart, club king, and diamond sequence, I mean come on. East just has a pass over that when west couldn't cuebid for him. West had the whole 4 level to cooperate and didn't. It isn't impossible for east to miss a slam if west has a perfect min, well you don't have to bid every 21 point slam and it's a lot better than just going down at the 5 level on normal game hands.

[the hog]

I blame west. East made a gt requesting help in Hearts. West bid 4S, showing something in the H suit, when he had nothing. Just bid 3S, else why are you bothering to play trial bids at all? Now 4S is an easy bid. East bid on expecting to find some H holding, not a rag xx.

[Fluffy]

mikeh, on 2013-January-04, 18:11, said:

In particular, West didn't cue bid. West's obligation was to cue bid if at all possible, given that he was going to game anyway and that opener MIGHT have been trying for slam, rather than making a g/t.

You mean west should cuebid the same with 2 aces and 4 aces?, I know 3NT convention is great for limiting, but when you lack it I use cuebid/not cuebid to limit my hand

[Free]

I don't like the 4♠ bid, but it tells that West has an absolute minimum hand to accept game and no slam interest whatsoever. East's 5♣ bid is imo the worst of all, overbidding his hand completely.

[rhm]

Free, on 2013-January-05, 06:12, said:

I don't like the 4♠ bid, but it tells that West has an absolute minimum hand to accept game and no slam interest whatsoever.

So what is it you do not like about 4♠?
After all West was not limited to an invitational hand and any other bid besides signing off in 3♠ would have been more encouraging. Lalldonn put it quite succinctly why 3♠ was not an option

Quote

East's 5♣ bid is imo the worst of all, overbidding his hand completely.

I do not really understand why we need to assess blame if someone without an ace bypasses game opposite a game invitational hand and goes down at the five level.

Rainer Herrmann

[PetteriLem]

West didnt co-operate when he blasted 4♠ that should be a clear warning for east that the cards he looking for arent to be found in west's hand.

[PhilKing]

West's 4♥ bid emphatically does NOT promise any sort of a fit for hearts - he could have a 13 count with three small, for instance.

Whilst slam could have been on, East was guilty of wishfull thinking - I would put the chances of bidding and making a good slam at under 15%.

[gnasher]

Fluffy, on 2013-January-05, 02:20, said:

You mean west should cuebid the same with 2 aces and 4 aces?, I know 3NT convention is great for limiting, but when you lack it I use cuebid/not cuebid to limit my hand

It's not just a matter of having two aces. Suppose that West has ♠A and ♦A. For slam to be good he also has to have ♥Q, a doubleton heart, and good trumps. AJxx Qxx Axx xxx or Axx Qx Axxxx xxx or Axxx Jx AQxx xxx is still a poor slam.

It's true that cue-bidding shows a better hand than 4♠, but this deal shows that splitting responder's strength into two ranges isn't good enough. You already know what the answer is: play 3NT as artificial, so that you can show three ranges instead of two.

[cherdano]

If West does not have a 4♠ bid over 3♥, then bridge is too complicated to me.
I would never stop short of game (really nice 10 hcp with 4 trumps and ruffing value), but the hand does not look slam suitable, the values are overall very slow (small doubleton in partner's side suit, QJT, K in RHO's suit).

I also find it quite strange that Mike thinks 4♠ denies the ♦A - I don't know anyone who plays that West is forced to cuebid when his hand is not slam suitable.

[fromageGB]

East 100% to blame. He makes a game try, West accepts (of course). He did have other bids available to show a better hand, and East has no reason to go higher.

[Phil]

nm

[Free]

rhm, on 2013-January-05, 07:19, said:

So what is it you do not like about 4♠?
After all West was not limited to an invitational hand and any other bid besides signing off in 3♠ would have been more encouraging. Lalldonn put it quite succinctly why 3♠ was not an option

I prefer the option to bid frivolous 3NT instead of an immediate 4♠. Opener can have anything from a minimum distributional opener to a very strong hand, so wasting an entire level of cuebidding just to show you're minimum is imo a waste. Since frivolous 3NT is not an option, all that rests me is to dislike the 4♠ bid...

[the hog]

Free, on 2013-January-05, 06:12, said:

I don't like the 4♠ bid, but it tells that West has an absolute minimum hand to accept game and no slam interest whatsoever. East's 5♣ bid is imo the worst of all, overbidding his hand completely.

I agree. As I stated in a previous post, it is a long suit try. What does the West hand have that was already not promised with the 3C bid? Where is the H help that East asked for and West promised with 4S? Perhaps others' idea of a trial bid are different to mine.

[Fluffy]

bah, gotta take my blame then.

Just to clarify things, could people show a couple of worst hands where they would cuebid 4m over 3♥? (couple because of various heart holdings) Note: this is an individual, there is no 3NT gadget for any player.

[fromageGB]

Playing non-serious 3NT or not, I would bid 4♦ over 3♥ on
♠ A832
♥ T2
♦ AQT7
♣ K92
or 4♣ over 3♥ on
♠ A832
♥ QJT
♦ QJT
♣ K92