[mike777]

 jillybean, on 2013-March-13, 06:25, said:

So here's the hand

---

MP, IMP, V, NV?

pass over 2h


2nt would be much more than this.

[jillybean]

 jillybean, on 2013-March-13, 08:24, said:

I was the one who was confused.

I'm afraid that bidding game over 2H would get us to too many hopeless games.

 billw55, on 2013-March-13, 08:32, said:

Agree. Maybe I am misunderstanding wyman but .. if we bid game with a 3 card limit raise after opener's minimum rebid, then aren't we basically abandoning invitations and treating them all as gameforces?

Agree

[mike777]

there are some reasons to bid game in a major at imps with a 9 card fit with minimum hands.

again this would be an easy pass over 2h for me.

[broze]

I agree with Wyman that if you were going to bid a limit raise and you suddenly discover that p has an extra trump I hardly think it is going to cost you to just bid game in this spot. In fact I would always do so at teams.

As for your problem , what would 2♠ have been for you? My p and I have been flipping between playing it as minors and as the 3 card limit raise. If you don't need either of these perhaps it can fill the spot for this hand.

[billw55]

 wyman, on 2013-March-13, 08:34, said:

No because 2H shows extra length.

It sounds like you are saying that all deals with ~22+ points and nine trumps should bid game. That might be a tenable position; is that actually what you mean?

[ArtK78]

In answer to the original question, agua is 100% correct - the 2NT rebid shows a balanced invite to a NT game.

However, there has been additional information between the initial 1NT bid and the rebid, in that opener has promised 6 hearts (I would not bid 2♥ with 5 very good hearts in a 4522 hand - I would bid 2♣). So, the 2NT bid should deny as many as 2 hearts. With the hand presented in post #4, I would bid 3♥ - invitational to game in hearts. 3♥ might still be a limit raise to game with 3 hearts, but it doesn't promise 3 hearts.

2♠ is an interesting idea. Perhaps 2♠ should show a 3 card limit raise in hearts while 3♥ shows a 2 card invitation. Or, more likely, the reverse, so that 2NT becomes a possible contract.

[wyman]

 billw55, on 2013-March-13, 08:52, said:

It sounds like you are saying that all deals with ~22+ points and nine trumps should bid game. That might be a tenable position; is that actually what you mean?

No, I said that all hands with a 3-card limit raise should bid game when they find out that opener has 6 trumps. There's a difference.

edit: differences, to be clear, include
* 6-3 fit, which may provide more tricks than a 5-4
* 11 v 11 plays better than 17 v 5

[mike777]

prefer to use 2s here for minor suited hands by responder, I dont have any other way to show them.

again with most hands that would be a 3 card invite I would just bid game at imps, but my 3 card invite hands are are not junky 10-11. that range would be a direct 2h raise for me over 1h.

[wyman]

 mike777, on 2013-March-13, 09:00, said:

prefer to use 2s here for minor suited hands by responder, I dont have any other way to show them.

again with most hands that would be a 3 card invite I would just bid game at imps, but my 3 card invite hands are are not junky 10-11. that range would be a direct 2h raise for me over 1h.

right we have different opening styles so evaluate invites differently, but the point is that hands with JB's shape are bidding 2NT if they are invitational, and hands that you initially called an invitational 3 card raise will now just bid game.

Whether our invites are 9-11, 10-11, 10-12, 11-12, more, whatever, that's a question of style

[aguahombre]

 jillybean, on 2013-March-13, 08:15, said:

This is the problem, I dont have a 3 card limit raise.

Or a two-card limit raise, either; you have a pass. The ten-count is for hands with 3+support but not completely flat. Here, you have an 8-card fit, but the partnership assets total 21-24 and you will be in game with all 23's if you invite.

11-12 is a better invite range for notrump.

BTW: After 1H-1N!-2H you have two bids at your disposal if you want them with heart support--2S (impossible as a natural call) and 3H. One or the other can be the real 3-card limit raise...We choose 3H with 3 hearts. Some don't have the two options and use the impossible 2S to show a 5-5 ish minor 2-suiter.

I see an overlap from Mike and Wyman due to slow typing, but a bit different on choices.

[billw55]

 wyman, on 2013-March-13, 08:59, said:

No, I said that all hands with a 3-card limit raise should bid game when they find out that opener has 6 trumps. There's a difference.

edit: differences, to be clear, include
* 6-3 fit, which may provide more tricks than a 5-4
* 11 v 11 plays better than 17 v 5

OK now I understand

Certainly agree that 11/11 plays better than 17/5. Not as sure about 6-3 versus 5-4 fits, for example 5-4 may be more durable against 3-1 breaks because a trump remains in dummy. Against that, the 6 bagger is more resistant to forcing so .. not sure the net effect.

[cherdano]

3H shows an invite with a fit. Could be 2-cards, could be 3-cards. But may hands that started as a 3-card limit raise will become a game force once we know that partner has 6 hearts. As opener, you should assume 2-card support, as that is more frequent than 3-card support not worth an upgrade.

[billw55]

 cherdano, on 2013-March-13, 09:20, said:

3H shows an invite with a fit. Could be 2-cards, could be 3-cards. But may hands that started as a 3-card limit raise will become a game force once we know that partner has 6 hearts.

I am interested in some example hands you would put in this category. Not arguing, just interested.

[Zelandakh]

 wyman, on 2013-March-13, 08:16, said:

2♣; it's clearly imperfect, but it's what we've got.

Imperfect is one word for it, I can think of a few others. Am I alone in thinking that this is one of the worst popular bidding ideas around today? I do not really understand why good players use 1NT like this over a 1♥ opening, when there is a perfectly good alternative available in 1♠ that would allow pairs to play exactly the same structure as they do over a 1♠ opening. And there are other options too. Nearly every option would be simpler for normal club players to handle than the 2/1 that everyone seems to learn unquestioningly.

[wyman]

 billw55, on 2013-March-13, 09:20, said:

OK now I understand

Certainly agree that 11/11 plays better than 17/5. Not as sure about 6-3 versus 5-4 fits, for example 5-4 may be more durable against 3-1 breaks because a trump remains in dummy. Against that, the 6 bagger is more resistant to forcing so .. not sure the net effect.

You often can get away with ruffing in the short hand before drawing anyway, so I don't see why the 'leftover' trump is a huge factor, except maybe that it's nice as an entry in some squeeze situations and allows for some more strip-and-endplay possibilities I guess.

But yeah, my point was basically that I'm not saying "22 pts + 9 trumps = game" -- I'm saying something about this specific auction and hand type.

[fromageGB]

I hope I never have the misfortune to pick up partners who rebid 3♥ on this hand. It seems a clear pass.

As to other points raised, with a partner not playing Flannery that does not like Kaplan Inversion, with a 4522 hand after 1♥ 1NT, I rebid 2♦, as 2♣ is artificial 15+. Partner will not pass with fewer than 5 diamonds, and even then only with a heart shortage. I am happy-ish with this.*

With a partner playing Kaplan Inversion, also not playing Flannery, when it starts 1♥ 1♠ (may have 4 spades) 2♦ shows 4 spades, and 1NT denies. I am much happier with this.*

As to the "impossible 2♠", it is not impossible if you play KI as I do. 1♥ 1NT(5+ spades) 2♦ 2♠ is 6 card 11+, while 1♥ 1♠ 1NT 2♠ is 6 card up to 10 hcp. (You could reverse these.) (For us an immediate 1♥ 2♠ is not wjs, but 4 card support 13+.)

With the non-KI partner, 2♠ really is impossible, and will never be bid. If you can't remember KI you would never remember what it might mean !

* The astute will note that these methods do not let opener rebid a natural 2♦. But as we can't bid a natural 2♣ either it seems reasonable to use it these ways when limited to a 14 max.

[Trinidad]

 fromageGB, on 2013-March-13, 11:32, said:

As to other points raised, with a partner not playing Flannery that does not like Kaplan Inversion, with a 4522 hand after 1♥ 1NT, I rebid 2♦, as 2♣ is artificial 15+.

Just curious. What do you rebid with a 13 point 4513? or a 4504? or a 3514? or a 3505? Are these all 2♦ rebids?

Rik

[aguahombre]

 Trinidad, on 2013-March-13, 13:05, said:

Just curious. What do you rebid with a 13 point 4513? or a 4504? or a 3514? or a 3505? Are these all 2♦ rebids?

Rik

I think he was saying he plays that gadzucks convention.

[rmnka447]

I'm another passer over 2 ♥ with this hand.

You may see a 10 point hand, but I see a 9 loser hand with lots of quacks.

If the hand were, say, ♠ xxx ♥ J10 ♦ Kxx ♣ AQxxx, I'd have no trouble inviting game.

[gwnn]

 aguahombre, on 2013-March-13, 15:06, said:

I think he was saying he plays that gadzucks convention.

Nope. He was saying 2C is 15+ artificial. Gazzilli has 2C as 11-14 with clubs or 15+ any/almost any.