[kenberg]

I agree that no one has an obligation to pay more taxes than the law requires. But it is a national error to structure the tax law so that some of our best and brightest put their talents to use gaming, even if legally gaming, the system. They are entitled to do so, and predictably some will do so, whatever someone else thinks of the propriety of it, but there is only so much talent out there, and we shouldn't waste it.

[ArtK78]

billw55, on 2013-May-24, 09:48, said:

The problem with this thinking is that we aren't living off our own means. We are living off the means of future citizens.

Bull hockey.

I have heard this said many times. It is just not true.

Public debt doesn't operate in the same way that private debt operates. If you or I were to borrow funds and not repay those funds, then the debt would be paid out of our assets upon our death and our descendants would have less to inherit from us (although they would not have to repay any excess).

In the case of public debt, it is paid off from future revenues if and when raised on a pay-as-you-go basis. There is no call upon the citizenry to pay the debt or the creditors will foreclose upon the country. The United States is not going to have a "going out of business sale."

The fact is that the debt gets paid, even if the total debt continues to increase. And the doomsayers continue to doomsay as they have since the beginning of time, only the day of reckoning never comes.

[kenberg]

Art, I am probably misunderstanding you. Currencies do collapse, investors do refuse to buy government issued bonds, governments are sometimes unable to deliver on financial promises. Governments fall. I assume you are not denying this, that you are instead saying something else, but I am not sure what.

[PassedOut]

ArtK78, on 2013-May-24, 13:33, said:

Bull hockey.

I have heard this said many times. It is just not true.

Public debt doesn't operate in the same way that private debt operates. If you or I were to borrow funds and not repay those funds, then the debt would be paid out of our assets upon our death and our descendants would have less to inherit from us (although they would not have to repay any excess).

In the case of public debt, it is paid off from future revenues if and when raised on a pay-as-you-go basis. There is no call upon the citizenry to pay the debt or the creditors will foreclose upon the country. The United States is not going to have a "going out of business sale."

The fact is that the debt gets paid, even if the total debt continues to increase. And the doomsayers continue to doomsay as they have since the beginning of time, only the day of reckoning never comes.

When interest rates are high, though, debt service payments eat up a larger portion of the revenues collected. If the government has spent the money on infrastructure improvements, education, health care and other investments that benefit future generations, those debt service payments might be worthwhile. When the debt balloons because of unnecessary wars, as with Iraq, the debt payments are like interest paid by people who've charged their groceries on a credit card -- except that those paying did not eat the food.

[FM75]

ArtK78, on 2013-May-24, 13:33, said:

Bull hockey.

I have heard this said many times. It is just not true.

Public debt doesn't operate in the same way that private debt operates. If you or I were to borrow funds and not repay those funds, then the debt would be paid out of our assets upon our death and our descendants would have less to inherit from us (although they would not have to repay any excess).

In the case of public debt, it is paid off from future revenues if and when raised on a pay-as-you-go basis. There is no call upon the citizenry to pay the debt or the creditors will foreclose upon the country. The United States is not going to have a "going out of business sale."

The fact is that the debt gets paid, even if the total debt continues to increase. And the doomsayers continue to doomsay as they have since the beginning of time, only the day of reckoning never comes.

The following list includes actual sovereign defaults and debt restructuring of independent countries from 1800 till 2012:^[16]

Africa

• Algeria (1991)
• Angola (1976,^[17] 1985, 1992-2002^[17])
• Cameroon (2004)^[17]
• Central African Republic (1981, 1983)
• Congo (Kinshasa) (1979)^[17]
• Côte d'Ivoire (1983, 2000)
• Gabon (1999–2005)^[17]
• Ghana (1979, 1982)^[17]
• Liberia (1989–2006)^[17]
• Madagascar (2002)^[17]
• Mozambique (1980)^[17]
• Rwanda (1995)^[17]
• Sierra Leone (1997–1998)^[17]
• Sudan (1991)^[17]
• Tunisia (1867)
• Egypt (1876, 1984)
• Kenya (1994, 2000)
• Morocco (1983, 1994, 2000)
• Nigeria (1982, 1986, 1992, 2001, 2004)
• South Africa (1985, 1989, 1993)
• Zambia (1983)
• Zimbabwe (1965, 2000, 2006^[17] (see Hyperinflation in Zimbabwe)

Americas

• Antigua and Barbuda (1998–2005)^[17]
• Argentina (1827, 1890, 1951, 1956, 1982, 1989, 2002-2005^[17] (see Argentine debt restructuring))
• Bolivia (1875, 1927,^[17] 1931, 1980, 1986, 1989)
• Brazil (1898, 1902, 1914, 1931, 1937, 1961, 1964, 1983, 1986–1987,^[17] 1990^[17])
• Canada (Alberta) (1935)^[17]
• Chile (1826, 1880, 1931, 1961, 1963, 1966, 1972, 1974, 1983)
• Colombia (1826, 1850, 1873, 1880, 1900, 1932, 1935)
• Costa Rica (1828, 1874, 1895, 1901, 1932, 1962, 1981, 1983, 1984)
• Dominica (2003–2005)^[17]
• Dominican Republic (1872, 1892, 1897, 1899, 1931, 1975-2001^[17] (see Latin American debt crisis), 2005)
• Ecuador (1826, 1868, 1894, 1906, 1909, 1914, 1929, 1982, 1984, 2000, 2008)
• El Salvador (1828, 1876, 1894, 1899, 1921, 1932, 1938, 1981-1996^[17])
• Grenada (2004–2005)^[17]
• Guatemala (1933, 1986, 1989)
• Guyana (1982)
• Honduras (1828, 1873, 1981)
• Jamaica (1978)
• Mexico (1827, 1833, 1844, 1850,^[17] 1866, 1898, 1914, 1928-1930s, 1982)
• Nicaragua (1828, 1894, 1911, 1915, 1932, 1979)
• Panama (1932, 1983, 1983, 1987, 1988-1989^[17])
• Paraguay (1874, 1892, 1920, 1932, 1986, 2003)
• Peru (1826, 1850,^[17] 1876, 1931, 1969, 1976, 1978, 1980, 1984)
• Surinam (2001–2002)^[17]
• Trinidad and Tobago (1989)
• United States (1779 (devaluation of Continental Dollar), 1790, 1798 (see The Quasi-war), 1862,^[18] 1933 (see Executive Order 6102),^[17] 1971 (Nixon Shock)
  • 9 states (1841–1842)^[17]
  • 10 states and many local governments (1873-83 or 1884)^[17]
  • Orange County, California (1994) ^[19]
• Uruguay (1876, 1891, 1915, 1933, 1937,^[17] 1983, 1987, 1990)
• Venezuela (1826, 1848, 1860, 1865, 1892, 1898, 1982, 1990, 1995–1997,^[17] 1998,^[17] 2004)

Asia

• China (1921, 1932,^[17] 1939)
• Japan (1942, 1946-1952^[17])
• India (1958, 1969^{[citation needed]}, 1972)
• Indonesia (1966, 1998, 2000, 2002)
• Iran (1992)
• Iraq (1990)
• Jordan (1989)
• Kuwait (1990–1991)^[17]
• Myanmar (1984,^[17] 1987,^[17] 2002)
• Mongolia (1997–2000)^[17]
• The Philippines (1983)
• Solomon Islands (1995–2004)^[17]
• Sri Lanka (1980, 1982, 1996^[17])
• Vietnam (1975)^[17]

Europe

• Albania (1990)
• Austria-Hungary (1796, 1802, 1805, 1811, 1816, 1868)
• Austria (1938, 1940, 1945^[17])
• Bulgaria (1932^{[citation needed]}, 1990)
• Croatia (1993–1996)^[17]
• Denmark (1813)^[17] (see Danish state bankruptcy of 1813)
• France (1812)
• Germany (1932, 1939, 1948^[17])
  • Hesse (1814)
  • Prussia (1807, 1813)
  • Schleswig-Holstein (1850)
  • Westphalia (1812)
• Greece (external debt: 1826-1842, 1843-1859, 1860-1878, 1894-1897, 1932-1964, 2010-present;^[20][21][22] domestic debt: 1932-1951^[20])
• Hungary (1932, 1941)
• The Netherlands (1814)
• Poland (1936, 1940, 1981)
• Portugal (1828, 1837, 1841, 1845, 1852, 1890)
• Romania (1933)
• Russia (1839, 1885, 1918, 1947,^[17] 1957,^[17] 1991, 1998)
• Spain (1809, 1820, 1831, 1834, 1851, 1867, 1872, 1882, 1936-1939^[17])
• Sweden (1812)
• Turkey (1876, 1915, 1931, 1940, 1978, 1982)
• Ukraine (1998–2000)^[17]
• United Kingdom (1822, 1834, 1888–89, 1932)^[17]
• Yugoslavia (1983)

[ArtK78]

FM75, on 2013-May-24, 14:50, said:

The following list includes actual sovereign defaults and debt restructuring of independent countries from 1800 till 2012:^[16]

* * *

And your point is?

None of this is relevant to the US in 2013.

[ArtK78]

Deleted duplicate post.

[ArtK78]

Deleted triplicate post.

[onoway]

There seems to be an echo in here...

[kenberg]

onoway, on 2013-May-24, 21:31, said:

There seems to be an echo in here...

There seems to be an echo in here.

[billw55]

ArtK78, on 2013-May-24, 13:33, said:

Bull hockey.

I have heard this said many times. It is just not true.

Public debt doesn't operate in the same way that private debt operates. If you or I were to borrow funds and not repay those funds, then the debt would be paid out of our assets upon our death and our descendants would have less to inherit from us (although they would not have to repay any excess).

In the case of public debt, it is paid off from future revenues if and when raised on a pay-as-you-go basis. There is no call upon the citizenry to pay the debt or the creditors will foreclose upon the country. The United States is not going to have a "going out of business sale."

The fact is that the debt gets paid, even if the total debt continues to increase. And the doomsayers continue to doomsay as they have since the beginning of time, only the day of reckoning never comes.

Default/bankruptcy/insolvency are not the only drawbacks of debt. Servicing debt comes out of the budget, and dollars so spent produce nothing.

And who exactly do you think pays the debt, if not the citizenry?

As for the reckoning never coming, tell that to Greece.

[Codo]

ArtK78, on 2013-May-24, 13:33, said:

Bull hockey.

I have heard this said many times. It is just not true.

Public debt doesn't operate in the same way that private debt operates. If you or I were to borrow funds and not repay those funds, then the debt would be paid out of our assets upon our death and our descendants would have less to inherit from us (although they would not have to repay any excess).

In the case of public debt, it is paid off from future revenues if and when raised on a pay-as-you-go basis. There is no call upon the citizenry to pay the debt or the creditors will foreclose upon the country. The United States is not going to have a "going out of business sale."

The fact is that the debt gets paid, even if the total debt continues to increase. And the doomsayers continue to doomsay as they have since the beginning of time, only the day of reckoning never comes.

You are partly right. There are really big differences between public and private depts. F.E: States have an easy way out of a dept crisis: They simply print more money. Unluckily they tried this before and it did not work at all. The cure will kill the patient.

But you are deadly wrong:

1. As Flem pointed out, there had been many states who had not been able to pay their depts. This can happen even to the US.
2. If our kids pay the depts from their taxes and have to pay for a "pay per use" system, they have to pay double.
We are responsible to pay our depts- as persons and as nations. Unluckily this does not happen.

[mike777]

onoway, on 2013-May-20, 16:01, said:

Apple Avoided Billions in Taxes, Congressional Panel Says

Even as Apple became the nation’s most profitable technology company, it avoided billions in taxes in the United States and around the world through a web of subsidiaries so complex it spanned continents and surprised experts, a Congressional investigation has found.
Some of these subsidiaries had no employees and were largely run by top officials from the company’s headquarters in Cupertino, Calif., according to Congressional investigators. But by officially locating them in places like Ireland, Apple was able to, in effect, make them stateless – exempt from taxes, record-keeping laws and the need for the subsidiaries to even file tax returns anywhere in the world.

In 2011, for example, one subsidiary paid Ireland just one-twentieth of 1 percent in taxes on $22 billion on pretax earnings from various operations; another did not file a corporate tax return anywhere and has paid almost nothing on $30 billion in profits since 2009.

Apple company and its owners may in fact pay more in taxes than any other company. It might be clearer to add up all taxes they do pay.

In any event given that the owners have lost roughly 200- 250 billion in value over the past year or so, they may not be happy. Many if not most of the owners are pension and retirement plan owners.

perhaps Apple should worry more about Samsung or Amazon.