[plum_tree]

Recommend a defense to a 15-17 HCP NT opener for a novice, something simple and straightforward. Something that a novice is unlikely to forget in the heat of the battle.

[Vampyr]

Play Landy -- 2♣ for both majors, all others natural.

[Fluffy]

Agree with the above, 2♣ landy and rest nat.

[CamHenry]

Important considerations when playing Landy:
- could it be 5-4 majors (either way around), or is it always 5-5?
- if they could be different lengths, how does advancer (overcaller's partner) ask which is better?
- what strength could it be? What's the minimum (so advancer can judge penalty risk) and maximum (so advancer knows when to defend)?
- what do advances mean? Some number of hearts/spades should almost always be to play; you want to know whether any ♦ or ♣ bids are natural or not.

I agree that it's probably the best method to start with (and one of the best to continue with) against any strength of no-trump.

[plum_tree]

 CamHenry, on 2013-June-20, 01:09, said:

Important considerations when playing Landy:
- could it be 5-4 majors (either way around), or is it always 5-5?
- if they could be different lengths, how does advancer (overcaller's partner) ask which is better?
- what strength could it be? What's the minimum (so advancer can judge penalty risk) and maximum (so advancer knows when to defend)?
- what do advances mean? Some number of hearts/spades should almost always be to play; you want to know whether any ♦ or ♣ bids are natural or not.

I agree that it's probably the best method to start with (and one of the best to continue with) against any strength of no-trump.

Anyone care to answer all these questions? Keep it simple (at novice level).

[gwnn]

The way I would recommend:

 CamHenry, on 2013-June-20, 01:09, said:

- could it be 5-4 majors (either way around), or is it always 5-5?

It could be 5-4 (I strongly recommend this).

Quote

- if they could be different lengths, how does advancer (overcaller's partner) ask which is better?

With 2♦ (this is completely standard).

Quote

- what strength could it be? What's the minimum (so advancer can judge penalty risk) and maximum (so advancer knows when to defend)?

This one depends very much on the vulnerability. I would say normally 8+ hcp (provided they are mostly in your suits) should be enough when NV and 10+ when V. Of course HCP is not the best measure but this post is meant to keep it simple. If you're 5-5 you should add another 2 points or so. There is no maximum except you are unlikely to have more than (say) 16 after a 1NT opening and when you have a shapely hand. Overcaller's partner should always assume that overcaller has a minimum and he will usually be right.

Quote

- what do advances mean? Some number of hearts/spades should almost always be to play; you want to know whether any ♦ or ♣ bids are natural or not.

2♦=asks for longer suit, then any major suit bid is invitational, e.g.
1NT-2♣-p-2♦
p-2♠-p-3♥=invitational with hearts. note that opener should
2♥, 2♠=preference
2NT should be a strong ask but you don't really need it (one decent scheme is 3♣=minimum, 3♦=5-5 any hand, 3H/3S=5-4 non minimum (technically it is cleverer to bid your 4-card major here but I wouldn't bother - like I said this bid doesn't come up so often...))
3m should be natural and forcing but again this hand doesn't often come up
3♥/3♠=4+card fit, 6-9 (I don't like "purely preemptive" or "to play" bids here, overcaller should know what his partner has so he can raise to game)
3NT= to play
4♣/4♦=I guess flag would be best but just don't bid 4m!! splinters for an unknown major don't make that much sense
4M=to play.

You should bid 99%+ of the time one of 2♦, 2M, 3M, and 4M. Ignore the rest of the foregoing.

[helene_t]

As a novice you might as well play everything natural. Landy is technically better but you should focus on the basics first. Things like whether FSF is forcing to game or not, overcall and preempt style, whether change of suit after partner's overcall is forcing. If you have a firm understanding of all this then it's time to add some conventions (including Landy), but then you aren't a novice anymore

[Zelandakh]

My recommendation for a complete novice would also be natural overcalls. I see plenty of players well above novice level abusing Landy and it is an unnecessary complication. Give the same criteria for an overcall over 1NT as over a 1♠ opening. With a very good hand double. No need for anything new here at all. As the players get better, they may find they start shading their overcalls down a little and might even ask about being more aggressive over a 1NT opening. Even if they do not, they will doubtless start coming across weak NT pairs and that will provide pause for thought. That is the time to introduce Landy.

[Fluffy]

The important thing about overcalling against 1NT is that strength doesn't matter.

Opponents have announced they have a minimum of 15 HCP. At a novice level it is a good tactic to simply assume we don't have game on our side. Obviously this won't always be true, but the exceptions shouldn't bother you at this moment.

As long as you play at the 2 level with 7/8 trumps and at the 3 level with 9, you will be protected by law of total tricks against bad scores regardless of your strength (meaning that if they double you and put you downs, it shouldn't compensate their game or slam bonus). This is an oversimplification obviously, vulnerability also matters but its a good general approach.


For example, I have 6 hearts, RHO opens 1NT, it doesn't really matter if I have 5 HCP or 12, I will bid 2♥ because I wanna play 2♥.

Now responder bids a natural 2♠, and partner who has 3 hearts himself, bids 3♥. He might have 7 HCP, or maybe he has 10, but it doesn't matter either.

We end up playing 3♥ with 9 trumps, that is a good score for us no matter what strenght we have:

-we could be doing it with 12 combined HCP doubled (they make game and we will go 1 or 2 down wich scores less)
-we could have 18 combined (making would be great, but if we go down and get -100 at worse, we are winning the hand against their making partscore with 22 combined)
-we could do it with 22 combined (we are in a good contract we deserve).

[plum_tree]

 Vampyr, on 2013-June-19, 22:54, said:

Play Landy -- 2♣ for both majors, all others natural.

How do you show a natural ♣ suit with this?

[plum_tree]

 CamHenry, on 2013-June-20, 01:09, said:

Important considerations when playing Landy:
- could it be 5-4 majors (either way around), or is it always 5-5?

What about 4-4?

 CamHenry, on 2013-June-20, 01:09, said:

I agree that it's probably the best method to start with (and one of the best to continue with) against any strength of no-trump.

I find the underlined bit intriguing. If this is accurate, why has so much energy been wasted in creating other defensive methods?

[campboy]

 plum_tree, on 2013-June-20, 08:32, said:

How do you show a natural ♣ suit with this?

Bid 3♣.

[plum_tree]

 helene_t, on 2013-June-20, 02:24, said:

As a novice you might as well play everything natural. Landy is technically better ...

See my question to CamHenry. Why has so much energy been wasted on other methods if Landy is so good?

[plum_tree]

One final question on Landy:
What do you do with a classical misfit? E.g. partner bids 2♣ (Landy) over the opponents 1NT and you hold both minors? You see trouble looming and want to end the auction as soon as possible?

[campboy]

 plum_tree, on 2013-June-20, 08:42, said:

See my question to CamHenry. Why has so much energy been wasted on other methods if Landy is so good?

Partly, because the energy has likely been expended by people who like tinkering with system.

Playing Landy rather than natural gives a significant benefit, IMO, at relatively little cost in terms of complexity. By contrast, the benefits of more complicated methods over Landy are less significant, and much more discussion is required.

Also, some of the better methods add to Landy rather than replacing it: a 2♣ overcall still shows the majors, but now a 2♦ overcall is also conventional.

[Fluffy]

 plum_tree, on 2013-June-20, 08:46, said:

One final question on Landy:
What do you do with a classical misfit? E.g. partner bids 2♣ (Landy) over the opponents 1NT and you hold both minors? You see trouble looming and want to end the auction as soon as possible?

Pass if you feel like it, a 5-1 in 2♣ is better than a 4-2 in 2♠ because if you get doubled you are too high to escape.

If partner is vulnerable he is most likelly 5-5 majors, so do not pass 2♣ with only 5, the 5-2 major fit will be sound. With any 3 card major you shouldn't pass either.

[Zelandakh]

 plum_tree, on 2013-June-20, 08:38, said:

why has so much energy been wasted in creating other defensive methods?

Landy is good for a specific and important hand type but the system is still quite defensive by nature. Most of the other methods that have been developed try to get into the auction on additional hand types. So going from Landy to Multi-Landy means you can now show 5M4m hands which were a problem before. Switching to Asptro or a related scheme also gives you the 4M5m hands (albeit with compensating disadvantages). Whenever you see a compley 1NT defence, you can be sure that the creator is trying to get more opportunities to bid without losing any of the important hand types.

 plum_tree, on 2013-June-20, 08:46, said:

One final question on Landy:
What do you do with a classical misfit? E.g. partner bids 2♣ (Landy) over the opponents 1NT and you hold both minors? You see trouble looming and want to end the auction as soon as possible?

If you have long clubs then you can pass. if not, just bid the better major, or bid 2♦ if both majors are equal length. Sometimes the opponents even rescue you here if you have not tipped them off that the hand is a misfit.

[MickyB]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-June-20, 09:14, said:

Most of the other methods that have been developed try to get into the auction on additional hand types.

Indeed. JLOGIC has argued persuasively that most overestimate the gains from having ways to get in on other handtypes and to distinguish between 6M and 5M4m.

Landy is there to be abused. Getting in on most hands with 5-4 majors is just such a big gain. It wouldn't occur to me that it might "usually be 5-5", even vulnerable.

[nige1]

 plum_tree, on 2013-June-19, 22:51, said:

Recommend a defense to a 15-17 HCP NT opener for a novice, something simple and straightforward. Something that a novice is unlikely to forget in the heat of the battle.

David Stevenson's web-site features a selection of Defences to one no-trump. Perhaps you could consider:

• Landy: 2♣ = majors (then 2♦ = no preference). 2N = minors, Others = Natural.
• Crowhurst (or a modern spin-off): 2♣ = Majors, 2♦ = 6+ M (then 2♥/♠ = pass/correct). 2♥/♠ = 5+ bid M, 4+ m, 2N = Minors. Others = Natural.
• Astro (or a variant): 2♣ = ♥ and another. 2♦ = ♠ and another. 2N = Minors.. Others = Natural..
• Sharples: 2♣ = 4+ ♠ (2 or 3-suited). 2♦ = equivalent to a T/O double of ♣s. 2N = Minors. Others = Natural.
• Outred: Double = 9+ HCP, two or three-suited. Others = Natural.

Landy is simple and effective although the natural 2♦ overcall is of doubtful effectiveness. Crowhurst (and variants) are popular and fashionable but quite sophisticated and seem to give opponents useful options. Astro is out of fashion. Sharples is also unfashionable but is simple and works OK. Outred is peculiar but simple and effective.

[neilkaz]

Landy is a fine convention for the novice wanting to try using something more than natural overcalls of opening NT and can be used against all ranges of NT without issues.