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Partner make 1 slam try and stop. 1d-1H-4H

#1 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2013-August-14, 22:25



4H is balanced or 2452.
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
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#2 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2013-August-14, 23:03

pass I could not have a worse hand.

I made what 2 slam trys? does pard really think I have nothing in spades?
for some reason pard did not bid rkc but chooses to make a confusing slam try cue bid.

------


I beg of you partner please stop with these 5 level cuebids or 4 level above kickback, over and over and over again....lets just play rkc, kickback.


I can live with one or two..but not always....
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#3 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2013-August-15, 00:37

Isn't it possible partner has a void? Possibly in diamonds so the cue bid was bad news?
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#4 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2013-August-15, 00:43

View PostAntrax, on 2013-August-15, 00:37, said:

Isn't it possible partner has a void? Possibly in diamonds so the cue bid was bad news?



if pard is void in d why not pass 4h.
anyway pass 5h.
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#5 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2013-August-15, 01:06

The meaning of the auction after 4:
5: "Partner, I am interested in slam, I have a club control, but I have a leak in spades."
    5: "I want to cooperate in your slam try because I have spades controlled."
5: "We seem to have a leak in the diamond suit."

The continuation should be:
    5: "No, we don't have a leak in diamonds. As a matter of fact -when it comes to controls in the side suits- a grand might still be there. I have first round control in spades, and -since I am probing for a grand- must have first round control in diamonds. However, I don't know whether we will have 13 tricks (I have already limited my hand so you should be able to tell that) and I don't know whether you have first round control in clubs."

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
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#6 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2013-August-15, 01:18

View PostTrinidad, on 2013-August-15, 01:06, said:

The meaning of the auction after 4:
5: "Partner, I am interested in slam, I have a club control, but I have a leak in spades."
    5: "I want to cooperate in your slam try because I have spades controlled."
5: "We seem to have a leak in the diamond suit."

The continuation should be:
    5: "No, we don't have a leak in diamonds. As a matter of fact -when it comes to controls in the side suits- a grand might still be there. I have first round control in spades, and -since I am probing for a grand- must have first round control in diamonds. However, I don't know whether we will have 13 tricks (I have already limited my hand so you should be able to tell that) and I don't know whether you have first round control in clubs."

Rik



so per you what does 5h say....over 5d...geez complicated who is saying all these bids, complicated



at this point we may be missing a of c and kq of trumps.
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#7 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2013-August-15, 01:34

My experience is that a 4432 19 count is a raise to three. And that way 4 is unambiguous.

As bid, the decision is really close, but I will guess to pass. How dare partner ask me to use my judgment rather than mindlessly invoke RKCB!
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#8 User is offline   bigbenvic 

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Posted 2013-August-15, 01:46

for me and my partner, this auction would show doubts about the spade suit. His cue then 5h after my cue suggests a hand with xx or xxx in spades.

As I have AK I bid 6h. If I was unbalanced say AK AJxx AQJTx xx I would bid 5S to try and find the perfect slam if pards had something like
xxx KQxxxx - AKxx which though a fantasy (ie perfect cards) is possible on the given bidding. However I'm not that strong and bidding slam does tell partner I have minimum for my 4h bid and the Ace of spades.
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#9 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2013-August-15, 03:29

View Postmike777, on 2013-August-15, 01:18, said:

so per you what does 5h say....over 5d...geez complicated who is saying all these bids, complicated

I think I answered that already. It says: "I don't have a diamond control."

View Postmike777, on 2013-August-15, 01:18, said:

at this point we may be missing a of c and kq of trumps.

So partner made a slam try with 0 keycards (something like QJ(x) xxxx(x) KJ(x) KQ(x)), knowing that we have an 18-19 balanced? Do you believe that?

We have limited our hand accurately. That means that if partners makes a slam try, he expects that we have 12 tricks. He is not inviting slam as in "Go to slam if you are MAX, stop short if you are MIN.". The 12 tricks are there. He just doesn't know whether the opponents can take 2 tricks before we have our 12. So he needs to check on controls.

He obviously can't go Blackwooding since he lacks control of the spade suit. For the same reason, he can't bid 4. So, the only thing he can do is start to cue 5. At this point, we know that we should be in slam. Partner sees 12 tricks, we see the controls in diamonds and spades that he is looking for.

This means that -at the time- our 5 bid is not very helpful to him: At that point he knows that we have spades controlled, but he expects that diamonds will be a problem and bids 5. So, he doesn't have the K, otherwise he would have gone to slam.

We know that we wanted to be in slam as soon as partner bid 5. So we make sure we get there. If we bid 5 now, we show first round control in spades and diamonds. Then it is up to partner to tell whether he see 13 tricks.

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
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#10 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2013-August-15, 04:56

View PostPhilKing, on 2013-August-15, 01:34, said:

My experience is that a 4432 19 count is a raise to three. And that way 4 is unambiguous.

As bid, the decision is really close, but I will guess to pass. How dare partner ask me to use my judgment rather than mindlessly invoke RKCB!

We use the 3N rebid for this sort of thing where we have a big hand with <5 diamonds and 4 hearts.
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#11 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2013-August-15, 05:29

View PostCyberyeti, on 2013-August-15, 04:56, said:

We use the 3N rebid for this sort of thing where we have a big hand with <5 diamonds and 4 hearts.


It's difficult to play in 3 that way.
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#12 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2013-August-15, 05:34

View PostPhilKing, on 2013-August-15, 05:29, said:

It's difficult to play in 3 that way.

True, but if you're going to force to game, doing it in such a way that you have a load of 4 level cues available must be better than 4.
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#13 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2013-August-15, 08:15

Playing kickback you still would make a 5C cue. Partner 5D wasnt a denial in D since since when you bypass RKC there is good chance of voids somewhere so using 5D as value there and confirm controls in the bypass suits make a lot of sense But i agree with trinidad that usually 5D is i have the S control but im not sure or ive got the S control and lack the D control. We dont respond as light as many players and we were in Imps so only a few 18 bal would be 3H bid.

In general me and my partner have no problems RKC instead of cuebidding and losing the 2 first trick if they find the lead if we feel that cuebidding will not solve all our problems. So here you can be sure that either hes got a D void either hes got another reason for believing RKC will not work so well.

In my favorite universe 2S (cheapest J-Shift or cheapesrt reverse would be artificial) and all others bid would be fairly precise. I so i agree that bidding 4H with many hands and 3H INV rather than forcing is a terrible method.
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
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#14 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2013-August-15, 09:22

Passing is beyond my comprehension. Partner needs a control and perhaps one in as well, we have both Aces.
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
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#15 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2013-August-15, 11:34

Partner is simply inviting slam and I would expect something like KQxxx of trump and the club Ace + a little more like a 6th trump or another minor suit honor.

Partner didnt key card because partner had no idea what to do over the right response.

How do we do opposite xxx KQxxx xx AQx? Not so hot although you might get a helpful opening lead.

Xx kqxxxx xx Axx? On a hook or magic spades.

xxx KQxxxx xx Ax. Blecch.

I pass.

P.S., using 4M to show a balanced 18-19 is one of the worst bids you can have in your arsenal.
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#16 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2013-August-15, 23:09

Responder hand was

J9xx
KQxxxx
--
Axx

6H is 50% while 6S is great on a non club lead and 50% on a club lead.

The hand could also be

Qxxx
KQxxxx
---
Kxx

where 6S is cold and 6H is 50%

VS

QJx
KQxxxx
---
Kxxx

6S is a lot better than 6H.

Once you think that responder is likely 4603,4504,3604 its clear that 5Nt PAS is a much better bid than 6H.
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
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#17 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2013-August-16, 08:29

Why was responder stopping in 5 when he had first round control of diamonds? Didn't he understand that 5 showed control of the spade suit (rather than the diamond suit)?

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
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#18 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2013-August-16, 19:59

View Postbenlessard, on 2013-August-14, 22:25, said:



Responder:
J 9 x x
K Q x x x x
void
A x x

Another way for Opener to show a GF hand is with the artificial 2S!-jump over the 1H response:

1D - 1H
2S! ( GF, may be artificial )
..... - 2NT! ( asks )
??
  3C! ( other minor ) = real Spades ( 4s ), no 3h
  3D = long Diam, no 4s, no 3h
  3H = 3h* , no 4s
  3S = 3h* AND 4s

After:
3S - 4S
4NT ( 6 Ace RKC )
..... - 5H ( 2 - Q )
6S
________________________________________________________________________
* Can always show the 4th by bidding 4H if opener rebids 3NT
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#19 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2013-August-16, 23:04

Quote

Why was responder stopping in 5♥ when he had first round control of diamonds? Didn't he understand that 5♦ showed control of the spade suit (rather than the diamond suit)?

Rik


Because hes got a D void and vs AQJ or AKx of D hes doesnt want to play slam. Note that without the T of Spades its only a 27% slam so since youve got AQx vs a void passing 5H is certainly OK. I agree that using artificial methods is a lot better than standard for those hands.
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
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#20 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2013-August-17, 00:56

View Postbenlessard, on 2013-August-16, 23:04, said:

Because hes got a D void and vs AQJ or AKx of D hes doesnt want to play slam. Note that without the T of Spades its only a 27% slam so since youve got AQx vs a void passing 5H is certainly OK. I agree that using artificial methods is a lot better than standard for those hands.

What is artificial about 5 showing spade control? How else are you supposed to show spade control when 5 says: "I want to go to slam, I don't have a spade control, but I have a club control."

5 showing spade control (and doubt about diamonds) is not artificial. I wouldn't even call it standard. It is simple bridge logic:
- Without a spade control you have to bid 5.
- With a spade control and a diamond control you bid higher than 5 (immediately, or after 5-5).
- That leaves 5 for the hands with a spade control and without a diamond control.

This "artifical method" is forced on you by the lack of bidding room. Other methods are not possible.

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
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