[mgoetze]

Thus far, I have played 1♥-2♣ as (a) a balanced game-force, (b) game-forcing with clubs or © invitational with 3 hearts. Opener should usually bid 2♦, after which responder will clarify: 2♥ shows the invite, 2NT the balanced hand and anything else natural with clubs.

That was, of course, predicated on my understanding that responder would bid 1♠ whenever he had 4+ spades, but that seems to be increasingly unpopular. So presumably it would be better to have 1♥-2♣; 2♦-2♠ show a balanced hand with 4 spades, and 1♥-2♣; 2♦-2NT a balanced hand with 2-3 spades? That would leave either 1♥-2♣; 2♦-3♣ or 1♥-2♣; 2♦-3♠ for unbalanced responders with 5+ clubs and 4 spades (or, uh, I guess you could consider 4225 kinda balanced too).

Does anyone (still) play like this and if so what do you do with 5+ clubs and 4 spades as responder?

Edit: and no doubt you could also switch 2♠ and 2NT so that 2♠ shows balanced with 2-3 spades.

[kgr]

mgoetze, on 2013-September-21, 04:35, said:

Does anyone (still) play like this and if so what do you do with 5+ clubs and 4 spades as responder?

Yes;
- bid 1♠ with invite hand
- Bid 2♣ followed by 2♠ with GF

[benlessard]

In the same vain

What I would like to suggest is 2C "drury" showing any 9+ with fit or bal 18+

1- You show fit right now and most bid other than 2C denies fit. IMO showing or denying fit is top priority in any system and the faster you you do this the better for comp bidding. Strenght is of secondary importance.

2- a 2/1 or a club bid always denies a fit so delayed support later you show Hx, or xx in competition and opener never need to repeat an average 6 card suit.

3- 2NT is GF bal ?? to 17 with 2 card support.

4- 3C and higher always real clubs GF

5- 2M raise is 6-8

6- you do not show responder type of hands on non-slammish hands.

ex
1S--2C
2S--4S (2s is dead min)

here responder can have many type of hands from a 2/1 to a splinter or a jacoby raise so they are in the dark for the lead.

I like this because I mostly think 2NT jacoby, Bergen raises and splinters that could be void or stiff are poor conventions.

[straube]

mgoetze, on 2013-September-21, 04:35, said:

Thus far, I have played 1♥-2♣ as (a) a balanced game-force, (b) game-forcing with clubs or © invitational with 3 hearts. Opener should usually bid 2♦, after which responder will clarify: 2♥ shows the invite, 2NT the balanced hand and anything else natural with clubs.

That was, of course, predicated on my understanding that responder would bid 1♠ whenever he had 4+ spades, but that seems to be increasingly unpopular. So presumably it would be better to have 1♥-2♣; 2♦-2♠ show a balanced hand with 4 spades, and 1♥-2♣; 2♦-2NT a balanced hand with 2-3 spades? That would leave either 1♥-2♣; 2♦-3♣ or 1♥-2♣; 2♦-3♠ for unbalanced responders with 5+ clubs and 4 spades (or, uh, I guess you could consider 4225 kinda balanced too).

Does anyone (still) play like this and if so what do you do with 5+ clubs and 4 spades as responder?

Edit: and no doubt you could also switch 2♠ and 2NT so that 2♠ shows balanced with 2-3 spades.

You can play 1H-2C, 2H as minimum...not accepting opposite a LR. This bid is useful because it preserves sequences (all continuations are GF) and it tells responder something meaningful even when responder has a GF hand. He can use continuations for strain and slam exploration. Now 1H-2C, 2D-2H etc are forcing bids. 1H-2C, 2D-2H, P is so wasteful.

I think that in theory 1H-1S for GF hands with 4 or more spades is better. It preserves so much more bidding room. Unfortunately 1) it requires very artificial agreements to sort out later and 2) the opponents can really complicate matters if they intervene. In my partnership we respond 2C (GF) when holding four spades and primarily with competition in mind. We also play that 1H-2S is a WJS so that we have 1H-1S, 2L-2S as an artifiical GF. When it goes 1H-1S, 1N there's a lot of room for responder to pattern out (which is probably what one wants to do opposite a balanced hand).

[jallerton]

mgoetze, on 2013-September-21, 04:35, said:

Thus far, I have played 1♥-2♣ as (a) a balanced game-force, (b) game-forcing with clubs or © invitational with 3 hearts. Opener should usually bid 2♦, after which responder will clarify: 2♥ shows the invite, 2NT the balanced hand and anything else natural with clubs.

That was, of course, predicated on my understanding that responder would bid 1♠ whenever he had 4+ spades, but that seems to be increasingly unpopular. So presumably it would be better to have 1♥-2♣; 2♦-2♠ show a balanced hand with 4 spades, and 1♥-2♣; 2♦-2NT a balanced hand with 2-3 spades? That would leave either 1♥-2♣; 2♦-3♣ or 1♥-2♣; 2♦-3♠ for unbalanced responders with 5+ clubs and 4 spades (or, uh, I guess you could consider 4225 kinda balanced too).

Does anyone (still) play like this and if so what do you do with 5+ clubs and 4 spades as responder?

Edit: and no doubt you could also switch 2♠ and 2NT so that 2♠ shows balanced with 2-3 spades.

I don't play this method, but if I did so, I would bid 2♠ over 2♦ with 4-5 in the blacks. If this is consistent with 4-4 in the blacks, maybe I can show the extra shape later. Why would anyone want to jump to 3♠ on a 4-5 shape when the auction is already game forcing?

[jallerton]

straube, on 2013-September-22, 16:44, said:

I think that in theory 1H-1S for GF hands with 4 or more spades is better. It preserves so much more bidding room. Unfortunately 1) it requires very artificial agreements to sort out later and 2) the opponents can really complicate matters if they intervene. In my partnership we respond 2C (GF) when holding four spades and primarily with competition in mind. We also play that 1H-2S is a WJS so that we have 1H-1S, 2L-2S as an artifiical GF.

Interesting. What is the range for your WJS? What do you do with any invitational hand with spades? 1♥-1♠-2L-3♠?

[straube]

jallerton, on 2013-September-25, 16:19, said:

Interesting. What is the range for your WJS? What do you do with any invitational hand with spades? 1♥-1♠-2L-3♠?

Yes. That would show GI with 6+ spades. We got this from Meckwell. They play 1H-1S, 2L-2S is GF with 5+. We do the same and use relays for opener's shape thereafter.

[fromageGB]

mgoetze, on 2013-September-21, 04:35, said:

Thus far, I have played 1♥-2♣ as (a) a balanced game-force, (b) game-forcing with clubs or © invitational with 3 hearts. Opener should usually bid 2♦, after which responder will clarify: 2♥ shows the invite, 2NT the balanced hand and anything else natural with clubs.

That was, of course, predicated on my understanding that responder would bid 1♠ whenever he had 4+ spades, but that seems to be increasingly unpopular. So presumably it would be better to have 1♥-2♣; 2♦-2♠ show a balanced hand with 4 spades, and 1♥-2♣; 2♦-2NT a balanced hand with 2-3 spades? That would leave either 1♥-2♣; 2♦-3♣ or 1♥-2♣; 2♦-3♠ for unbalanced responders with 5+ clubs and 4 spades (or, uh, I guess you could consider 4225 kinda balanced too).

Does anyone (still) play like this and if so what do you do with 5+ clubs and 4 spades as responder?

With one partner we do play this, more or less : (a) 16+ balanced may have 4 spades, (b) GF clubs, © 3 card support inv or better. Over 2♦ 2♥ = inv and may be passed, 2♠ = 4 card, 2NT = denies spades, 3♣ = nat, 3♥ = GF 3 card (then non-serious 3♠/cue bids).
So after 2♣ we always start with spades with 4 and the possibly 5 card club suit is unknown at this stage. If opener bids 2NT, then we bid 3♣ with 5, as opener would usually bid 3♣ himself with 4.

This is 16+ strength with 4 spades, though, as with weaker hands we start 1♠. Or 1NT (KI) with 5 cards.
We use 1NT followed by 2♠ as 6 card invitational, 1♠ then 2♠ as weak2 type, and a direct 2♠ as a 4 card support GF (Jacoby like).

[nige1]

mgoetze, on 2013-September-21, 04:35, said:

Thus far, I have played 1♥-2♣ as (a) a balanced game-force, (b) game-forcing with clubs or © invitational with 3 hearts. Opener should usually bid 2♦, after which responder will clarify: 2♥ shows the invite, 2NT the balanced hand and anything else natural with clubs.
That was, of course, predicated on my understanding that responder would bid 1♠ whenever he had 4+ spades, but that seems to be increasingly unpopular. So presumably it would be better to have 1♥-2♣; 2♦-2♠ show a balanced hand with 4 spades, and 1♥-2♣; 2♦-2NT a balanced hand with 2-3 spades? That would leave either 1♥-2♣; 2♦-3♣ or 1♥-2♣; 2♦-3♠ for unbalanced responders with 5+ clubs and 4 spades (or, uh, I guess you could consider 4225 kinda balanced too).
Does anyone (still) play like this and if so what do you do with 5+ clubs and 4 spades as responder?
Edit: and no doubt you could also switch 2♠ and 2NT so that 2♠ shows balanced with 2-3 spades.

Finding this topic in the Natural Bidding forum will come as less of a surprise to those who've enjoyed watching the Bermuda Bowl on BBO.

[nige1]

mgoetze, on 2013-September-21, 04:35, said:

Thus far, I have played 1♥-2♣ as

• balanced game-force,
• game-forcing with clubs
• invitational with 3 hearts.

Opener should usually bid 2♦, after which responder will clarify: 2♥ shows the invite, 2NT the balanced hand and anything else natural with clubs.
That was, of course, predicated on my understanding that responder would bid 1♠ whenever he had 4+ spades, but that seems to be increasingly unpopular. So presumably it would be better to have 1♥-2♣; 2♦-2♠ show a balanced hand with 4 spades, and 1♥-2♣; 2♦-2NT a balanced hand with 2-3 spades? That would leave either 1♥-2♣; 2♦-3♣ or 1♥-2♣; 2♦-3♠ for unbalanced responders with 5+ clubs and 4 spades (or, uh, I guess you could consider 4225 kinda balanced too).
Does anyone (still) play like this and if so what do you do with 5+ clubs and 4 spades as responder?
Edit: and no doubt you could also switch 2♠ and 2NT so that 2♠ shows balanced with 2-3 spades.

Finding this topic in the Natural Bidding forum will come as less of a surprise to those who've enjoyed watching the Bermuda Bowl on BBO.