[Wackojack]

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We do not play weak jump shifts. We have agreed to play that after such a jump a new suit is a cue showing 1st or 2nd round control although a subsequent rebid in that suit could now be natural showing a 2 suiter and a slam try.

Do you bid 3♠? If so, will partner not think that you are weak with 6 spades?

[helene_t]

3♠ is forcing so partner won't think you are weak. But yes, he might raise you on a small doubleton.

With your agreements I wouldn't dare to bid 4♣. So the choice is between pass and 3♠. I would bid 3♠ at IMPs. At MP I think I would pass but I am not sure. Maybe I am influenced too much by English club bridge where people tend to overbid as opener and underbid as responder.

[whereagles]

I would pass. Bad support, no ruffing, dubious club Q. At best, game will be on the spade finesse. Not worth it NV, I think.

[Cyberyeti]

 whereagles, on 2013-November-01, 06:01, said:

I would pass. Bad support, no ruffing, dubious club Q. At best, game will be on the spade finesse. Not worth it NV, I think.

I think I agree with you, but would feel a little sick if partner produced x, AKQJxx, xxx, AKx and we made 6.

[Cascade]

Raising hearts is always a possibility with these hands.

In addition many partnerships recognise a strong hand with three spades and six hearts as a potential problem and have structured ways to bid those hands or will strive to make another bid it at all possible.

[jallerton]

I would bid 3♠, naural and forcing. We could be making any of 3NT, 4♥ and 4♠ and I'll accept partner's choice of strain on the next round.

Passing 3♥ could work out best, but it's aiming for a fairly narrow target.

[fromageGB]

I think you are way too strong to pass, but maybe that depends on how weak your 2♣ open could be. 3♠ is perfect, as you are forced to bid with this strength, and you have an ace there. Opener is going to play in hearts. He would not bid like that if spades were in the frame.

[mcphee]

3S is forcing for most as 3H isn't F, therefore the simple principle of, we do not attempt to improve part scores fills this spot nicely. For me I am too good to pass 3H, if partner believes when I rebid 3S I require 6 that will be unfortunate. I do not see how rebidding 3S and needing 6 strikes me as rather restrictive.

The only option this particular hand is rebidding our spades, or raise of hearts, 4C is over the top.

[Wackojack]

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As you can see 4♥ is a lucky make when 4♠is far superior. 5 out of the 78 BBO pairs bid in the same way as we did. I can see that partner's rebid of 3♥ is not everyone's cup of tea but I am happy with it. Partner was not happy with my raise to 4♥ and we both agreed after that I should have rebid 3♠.

I would be very interested to know of the possible "structured" way to bid this type of hand Cascade. Are we talking about a Gazilli type structure as I have never bothered to learn this?

[fromageGB]

It is not everyone's style, but we bid 2♣ rebid as 15+ saying nothing about clubs (but denying 4 card spade support). 2♦ reply is any hand with 8 hcp (upgrade a fancied 7), and with a weaker hand responder bids 2♥ usually, or 2♠ or 3m to play with 6 and heart shortage. After the 2♦, opener rebids naturally, but a bid at the 3 level would be 17+ and thus GF, while a bid of 2♥, 2♠ or 2NT is 15/16 and may be passed.

On this hand North bids 2♠ to show 3, and South with a 7 loser and probable cross ruffs is probably good enough to bid 4♠. If you judge it only good enough for 3♠ (definitely too good to pass) then opener with his prime controls bids 4♠. So 1♥ 1♠ 2♣! 2♦! 2♠ 4♠.

With one partner, while still playing the above, we play Kaplan inversion where 1NT is the first bid to show 5 spades, which makes it easier if North was weaker, but on this hand all roads lead to 4♠.

[Zelandakh]

 Wackojack, on 2013-November-02, 08:03, said:

Are we talking about a Gazilli type structure as I have never bothered to learn this?

This is one option but there are several others. For example, if you played the 1♥ opening as denying a balanced hand, you could use a 2NT rebid to show a good 3 card raise. If you do a search I believe Francis and PK inter alia) have also posted structures of this type.

[JLOGIC]

If you're going to bid 3S seems clear to me, but I would probably have chosen to pass.

[JLOGIC]

 Wackojack, on 2013-November-02, 08:03, said:

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As you can see 4♥ is a lucky make

It is always very lucky to make a ~0 % game Unless I am missing something they can shift to a club from either side depending on who has the king.

[the hog]

Uh 2D a C and a H to lose? How can 4H make?
By the way, I dislike the 3H bid holding 3 good S cards in support.

[whereagles]

What (natural) bid do you suggest then, Ron?

[the hog]

Playing no conventions, I guess you really should bid 2S Nuno. The H suit is not worth 3H.
I would bid an artificial 2NT on this, but that is in the wrong forum.

[fromageGB]

In a natural bidding system, not all bids have to mean what they say on the can. Artificial bids ARE allowed, and it would be extremely difficult to play without some. If someone espouses a 2NT call, for example, it is only fair to explain what it means, how it is handled and what the continuations are. Then all we natural system players can see if it would benefit or hinder our way of doing things. How else do we learn of many things without reading about them here and elsewhere?

[whereagles]

 the hog, on 2013-November-03, 17:55, said:

Playing no conventions, I guess you really should bid 2S Nuno. The H suit is not worth 3H.
I would bid an artificial 2NT on this, but that is in the wrong forum.

Well, no way I would bid a natural 2S (sorry )... the hand is neither a minimum nor shapely enough to propose what could be a moysian fit. I'm talking from experience here.. I've used to support partner's major on shapes like these and the outcome was often rather disappointing.

As for an artificial 2NT, I guess it's ok if you can show the 63xx and medium strength later, without going beyond 3H.

[Wackojack]

 JLOGIC, on 2013-November-02, 16:43, said:

It is always very lucky to make a ~0 % game Unless I am missing something they can shift to a club from either side depending on who has the king.

It is lucky when you get a spade lead

[the hog]

 fromageGB, on 2013-November-04, 05:18, said:

In a natural bidding system, not all bids have to mean what they say on the can. Artificial bids ARE allowed, and it would be extremely difficult to play without some. If someone espouses a 2NT call, for example, it is only fair to explain what it means, how it is handled and what the continuations are. Then all we natural system players can see if it would benefit or hinder our way of doing things. How else do we learn of many things without reading about them here and elsewhere?

How? Easily, by bothering to read the forums where this has already been explained many times!