[MrAce]

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Ew playing simple 2/1, NS expert opps.

4♥ making

4♠ also making but even down 1 would be better than letting them make 4 ♥

[Cyberyeti]

This is pretty tough, the auction up to the 4♥ bid is routine, E can't really bid 4♠, if he does, he'll find partner with Kxxx, Qxx, xx, KQJx, W can't really do anything or he'll catch partner with xxx, Qxx, KQJx, Axx. Not sure what the X is in standard 2/1, if it's penalty orientated, I can't really criticise it, and the pass is routine, if it's T/O (as it is for us) or a do something sensible type double, I think E should bid 4♠.

[helene_t]

After the double (which is not penalty of course) I would have bid 4♠ with the East hand but it's close. I might have passed with the West hand but I don't think so.

[MrAce]

Double was card showing, and W is a little skinny for his double, if that helps to ATB.

[Cyberyeti]

MrAce, on 2014-March-18, 05:00, said:

Double was card showing, and W is a little skinny for his double, if that helps to ATB.

I hate that type of double that can be "13 cards some of which are high" with no knowledge whether you're 5-1 or 4-3 in the majors. I wouldn't criticise either action by E, he's purely guessing.

[MrAce]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-March-18, 05:09, said:

I hate that type of double that can be "13 cards some of which are high" with no knowledge whether you're 5-1 or 4-3 in the majors. I wouldn't criticise either action by E, he's purely guessing.

Unfortunately emotions like "hate" or "love" has very little use in bridge, if any. I aso would love it if my pd knew when my double is take out, when strength and when it is pure penalty. You know very well that entire bridge world has not solved this issue which satisfies everyone.. Actually in your first reply you said something like "Do something sensible pd " Which is in fact not much different than "card showing" There is a reason for this terminology, which is to avoid calling it a "penalty" or " Take out" double. And yes, that makes 13 cards some of which are high, but much higher than your previous response promised

- Are you suggesting we should double only with T/O shape and pass regardless of our values otherwise ? Or are you suggesting that West should find another bid instead of DBL, which will lead to a complete guess by W while you are trying to rescue East from guessing ?

- Are you suggesting it to be penalty ?

[Cyberyeti]

I was suggesting that it should be takeout, and if it's flat, it needs to be a bit bigger, as the expectation is that partner will bid as often as he will pass. This is another hand that is much more awkward for strong no trumpers as I know the 1♦ opener is either unbalanced or big, so this decision is usually easier while you might have to cater for a weak NT.

The difference in my mind between a T/O and penalty double is not really the hand itself, it's what you expect partner to do on a nondescript opener, and I think this decision is easier when a weak NT is excluded. I actually think you want this double in a strong NT context as "pass with a weak NT or hearts, bid with unbalanced" with a question mark over what you do with a weak NT with 2 hearts.

[billw55]

Difficult. The only real alternatives I see are for west to pass out 4♥, or for east to pull to 4♠. At IMPs I think I would pull, at matchpoints flip a coin.

[mikeh]

I'm astounded.....absolutely astounded....that cyber appears never to have won a major event....how can that be, given that playing his methods he has ALWAYS made the winning decision on every BBF thread where we can see what the winning action would be.

Maybe in the real world he doesn't get to see his partner's hand....let alone all 52 cards...when he has to make his call.

Meanwhile, in that real world, W's double is almost always played as card-showing rather than either penalty or takeout.

As it happens, N took an aggressive action and bought a great dummy, West took an aggressive action and bought a terrible layout, and East had what seems like a pure guess to me and went 'wrong' as the cards lie.

I don't think I would have bid the 2nd time as West, but it is tough to be sure when I can see that it probably would lead to the table result. Not that defending undoubled is all that great either, of course. N's action could have led to disaster his way but it worked, so it was a 'bold' move that paid off and he gets the credit.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2014-March-18, 09:28, said:

I'm astounded.....absolutely astounded....that cyber appears never to have won a major event....how can that be, given that playing his methods he has ALWAYS made the winning decision on every BBF thread where we can see what the winning action would be.

Maybe in the real world he doesn't get to see his partner's hand....let alone all 52 cards...when he has to make his call.

Meanwhile, in that real world, W's double is almost always played as card-showing rather than either penalty or takeout.

As it happens, N took an aggressive action and bought a great dummy, West took an aggressive action and bought a terrible layout, and East had what seems like a pure guess to me and went 'wrong' as the cards lie.

I don't think I would have bid the 2nd time as West, but it is tough to be sure when I can see that it probably would lead to the table result. Not that defending undoubled is all that great either, of course. N's action could have led to disaster his way but it worked, so it was a 'bold' move that paid off and he gets the credit.

Keep your sarcasm to yourself, I admit plenty of times that it's a coinflip at the end, and this is one of those cases. I might well not have doubled with the W hand playing strong NT and would have conceded 4♥. Having also won 2 regionals (1 pairs 1 teams) and a national sim pairs in the last week Sunday->Sunday, I do occasionally get it right single dummy too

[ggwhiz]

Tough auction since east west probably both took say, 48% calls and 48 plus 48 divided by 2 = something far south of zero.

I HATE WJS and currently play them strong but I can't see a way out of this unless you play a fit jump here but I don't know anyone who does.

[wank]

i think east has to bid - his ODR is huge

[whereagles]

North, although I can't see why West doubled.

[bluecalm]

100% E.
I supsect MrAce looking for ammunition to convince his partner here as the hand is very easy and the blame obvious. You need a double to show strong hand (how else would you do that?). Having the information about strong hand without 6 decent spades 4S is obvious decision for E.

Three more points:
-how E passed 4H is beyond me. Double is again obvious with 3 good spades and significant extras
-double from W is very aggressive and I wouldn't make it; W covered for his P's mistake but got shot twice so to speak
-I think it's best to play that dbl from W shows 5 spades. With 4 spades and GF hand it's better to start with 2/1 not 1S but even without this agreement W is huge favorite to have 5 spades for this auction.

I also think it's very interesting problem what to bid after dbl from E. I would probably go for 5D but I think 4S is real alternative and I am not confident at all which one is better.
Seeing the result of the poll and the comments I am puzzled. I consider it abc beginner level problem tbh.

[TylerE]

In what galaxy, nee UNIVERSE, is W's hand a strong hand for this sequence. If he was 5-0-4-4 I might be able to give that some credence, but I see a hand full of downgrades (Bad-ish 5 bagger, xx in opps suit, Qx clubs). The diamond fit is about the only thing I'd actually be happy about as west.

[billw55]

bluecalm, on 2014-March-18, 13:44, said:

100% E.
I supsect MrAce looking for ammunition to convince his partner here as the hand is very easy and the blame obvious. You need a double to show strong hand (how else would you do that?). Having the information about strong hand without 6 decent spades 4S is obvious decision for E. I think "obvious" is an overbid. True east's aces are good controls, but also good defense.

Three more points:
-how E passed 4H is beyond me. Double is again obvious with 3 good spades and significant extras This is a good 12 count that he already opened the bidding on. I don't call that "significant extras"
-double from W is very aggressive and I wouldn't make it; W covered for his P's mistake but got shot twice so to speak
-I think it's best to play that dbl from W shows 5 spades. With 4 spades and GF hand it's better to start with 2/1 not 1S but even without this agreement W is huge favorite to have 5 spades for this auction. Are you advocating using 2♣ over 1♦ as artificial? - as there is no other 2/1 call available.

I also think it's very interesting problem what to bid after dbl from E. I would probably go for 5D but I think 4S is real alternative and I am not confident at all which one is better.
Seeing the result of the poll and the comments I am puzzled. I consider it abc beginner level problem tbh. Not sure what to say about that.

[bluecalm]

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This is a good 12 count that he already opened the bidding on. I don't call that "significant extras"

I retract my comments about double from E as I blacked out temporarily and got the sequence mixed up (thinking East responded and not opened).
E has easy pass. Thanks for pointing this out to me.

Quote

Are you advocating using 2♣ over 1♦ as artificial? - as there is no other 2/1 call available.

Mixed feelings. Lauria-Versace and other Italians started doing it recently (presumably for the reason I mentioned) but I am not that convinced as 1D-2C is very cramped anyway.

Quote

In what galaxy, nee UNIVERSE, is W's hand a strong hand for this sequence. If he was 5-0-4-4 I might be able to give that some credence, but I see a hand full of downgrades (Bad-ish 5 bagger, xx in opps suit, Qx clubs). The diamond fit is about the only thing I'd actually be happy about as west.

You may call the double aggressive, crazy or just silly... still it didn't contribute to bad score for EW and in fact opened the door for a good one.

[MrAce]

I was West

And yes, my double is skinny. But there was a reason for that and this is their preempt style. I saw them opening weak 2♠ red vs white with KQ9xx and w/r 2♥ with JTxxx suit. I felt like we are being robbed again.

My pd said " I should have bid" I said "it is not quite clear" So i do not need to convince my pd nor need any ammunition against him. I thought he had an interesting decision while i also wanted to hear comments about my double. After all if i did not double, we would be -420 instead of -590.

[ggwhiz]

In that context I see no reason they don't go for a pretty big number (give east a 2-4-4-3 weak nt). North won the lottery in dummy and 4♥ was definitely a pin the tail on the donkey bid.

It was you THIS time.

[nige1]

MrAce, on 2014-March-18, 04:18, said:

Ew playing simple 2/1, NS expert opps.
4♥ making
4♠ also making but even down 1 would be better than letting them make 4 ♥

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IMO Compliment North-South on their high-variance style, and North on his lucky pre-empt. Neither East nor West to blame. West has a bit to spare for 1♠. East has good 3-card ♠ support but his doubleton ♥ and 2 aces suggest defence. Ying (a partner of mine) also loves Tiger doubles. In another thread, Rainer recommends defending more doubled contracts. If you adopt that (IMO, good) advice), you will make the occasional wrong guess

BTW, Over minor 1-openers, fit jumps (showing a 5+suit and 4+support) were suggested in a recent thread. Here a 2♠ fit-jump by west might have helped East.