[PassedOut]

kenberg, on 2014-August-08, 22:54, said:

A few weeks back I went on a road trip, up through Sault St. Marie, over to Lac La Belle (or words to that extent) across Wisconsin, visiting a friend in northern Minnesota, down to the Twins, back into Wisconsin for a couple of stops (including the House on the Rock, a truly weird place that plays a role in American Gods, hence Becky's desire to see it) and then back to Maryland. A fun trip.

Lac La Belle is on the Keweenaw peninsula, about 40 miles north of where we live. We know the former owner of the lodge there and stop in from time to time at the Bear Belly Bar & Grill. I've also been to the House on the Rock several times, but not for 30 years or so -- I'm happy to know it's still there!

[kenberg]

PassedOut, on 2014-August-09, 06:29, said:

Lac La Belle is on the Keweenaw peninsula, about 40 miles north of where we live. We know the former owner of the lodge there and stop in from time to time at the Bear Belly Bar & Grill. I've also been to the House on the Rock several times, but not for 30 years or so -- I'm happy to know it's still there!

On the way to Wisconsin from the UP, we stopped at a Finnish cafe, recommended by AAA, for breakfast. i can't say I cared much for Finnish pancakes but I like the place a lot. I'll try to find the name, you may know it.

The House on the Rock was fascinating, but after about two and a half hours there we were both ready to go.For those who are a. reading this, b. haven't been there and c. are interested, it seems to be some sort of fantasy construction. There is the "infinity room" which thrusts far out over nothing, supported only at one end. It sways in the breeze. There is a giant mock whale. There is a jazz band of constructed musicians that plays jazz on request, right next to a chamber music group that plays Mozart (or something, I forget). There is a carousel that figures into the novel American Gods (the story was that when immigrants came to this country they left the old gods, Thor and all, behind and collectively these gods are seriously pissed. The carousel was some sort of door into something. Becky followed it all more than I did.). There is a duck in with an exhibit that has nothing to do with ducks. Becky figured that the guy was at a yard sale, saw the duck and said to himself "I know just the spot for that duck". There is a Japanese Garden or it says that it is. There is stuff, lots of stuff.

Anyway, enough of enjoyment, back to poverty. There are times that I simply feel overwhelmed by the problems that we have. Quite often I feel that way, I have decided to live for another twenty-five years to see how we solve them. Maybe I had better make it thirty.

[barmar]

mike777, on 2014-August-08, 13:49, said:

I vote strongly for child labor. I certainly worked as a ten year old and I helped support the family as a child as best I could.

I had a paper route when I was a teenager. But this was to earn some extra spending money of my own, and was totally voluntary.

In many societies, including America through the early 20th century, forced child labor was a way to get more workers for less money -- children weren't paid as much as adults (it's similar to the reason we now out-source to China and India).

[mike777]

I assume some work you did as child, perhaps much was not voluntary and I assume for most of it you were not paid a salary. I mean work is work whether in the home, school or outside. I doubt parents even today in 2014 don't often make their child do some work they don't want to do.

In any case if the work you did outside the home and school you got paid and was yours to spend on yourself, cool. This is pretty rare for most of the world.

Keep in mind as I noted 200,000 American children are sold for sex each year if the NBC news report is accurate. Now add in outside the USA and the poverty in the world.
The main point of the report was the fact that almost no one in the world is sent to jail for paying for sex with kids. The crime is basically not prosecuted. They do sometimes go after the pimps but not the paying customers. IN the USA the big day for this is the Super Bowl.

[kenberg]

My work as a teenager was certainly not designed to support the family. I liked being able to take a girl on a date without having to ask my parents to financially support this activity, I liked buying my own car, a friend and I took a road trip when I was fifteen, that sort of thing. I gradually started buying my own clothes, choosing what I wished. There is a great difference between this and what waas often the case in the early part of the twentieth century. My experience was, in my opinion, a fine part of growing up. Among other things I learned something about features of a job that I liked, and features that I did not like. Close supervision, for example, did and does drive me nuts. This knowledge helps in choosing a satisfactory path as an adult.

I do recall being very aggravated by laws that "protected" me, as a teen, from some jobs that paid well.

As for sex with children, my only thought onn the subject is that I am generally opposed to capital punishment but I am willing to make exceptions.

[PassedOut]

kenberg, on 2014-August-10, 20:06, said:

On the way to Wisconsin from the UP, we stopped at a Finnish cafe, recommended by AAA, for breakfast. i can't say I cared much for Finnish pancakes but I like the place a lot. I'll try to find the name, you may know it.

The two local places that I know of that specialize in Finnish food are the Kaleva Café in Hancock and the Suomi Restaurant in Houghton. I like them both, but the latter is a special favorite. The street signs in downtown Hancock are in both English and Finnish.

kenberg, on 2014-August-10, 20:06, said:

The House on the Rock was fascinating, but after about two and a half hours there we were both ready to go.For those who are a. reading this, b. haven't been there and c. are interested, it seems to be some sort of fantasy construction. There is the "infinity room" which thrusts far out over nothing, supported only at one end. It sways in the breeze. There is a giant mock whale. There is a jazz band of constructed musicians that plays jazz on request, right next to a chamber music group that plays Mozart (or something, I forget). There is a carousel that figures into the novel American Gods (the story was that when immigrants came to this country they left the old gods, Thor and all, behind and collectively these gods are seriously pissed. The carousel was some sort of door into something. Becky followed it all more than I did.). There is a duck in with an exhibit that has nothing to do with ducks. Becky figured that the guy was at a yard sale, saw the duck and said to himself "I know just the spot for that duck". There is a Japanese Garden or it says that it is. There is stuff, lots of stuff.

Too bad. Many years ago when I visited, it was not full of all that stuff. It was just a very interesting home built for himself by (so far as I recall) an eccentric artist. When he was away, you could rent it out for company outings, etc., or buy a ticket to walk through.

kenberg, on 2014-August-10, 20:06, said:

Anyway, enough of enjoyment, back to poverty. There are times that I simply feel overwhelmed by the problems that we have. Quite often I feel that way, I have decided to live for another twenty-five years to see how we solve them. Maybe I had better make it thirty.

Sounds like a good plan!

[kenberg]

PassedOut, on 2014-August-11, 07:18, said:

The two local places that I know of that specialize in Finnish food are the Kaleva Café in Hancock and the Suomi Restaurant in Houghton. I like them both, but the latter is a special favorite. The street signs in downtown Hancock are in both English and Finnish.

Becky checked, it was the Suomi. The pancakes were too sweet, or too something like sweet, for me. But in many ways I felt like I was at home, a feeling I had throughout much of the trip. Nostalgia is tricky, I didn't always fit in all that well when I was in that environment, but I enjoyed the atmosphere very much.

You have spoken of the UP as a very conservative area. I can see how it might be. From what I saw, these are conservatives that I get along with just fine.

At Lac La Belle they told me when we checked in that there would be a fishfry. Thinking we would get fresh fish from Superior I said great. We got cod balls. Even in my neighborhood where I grew up would have objected to codballs. We caught bass we ate bass. Not codballs. And there was this huge pot of something. It tuned out to be tartar sauce. But I quibble. We had a great time.

This all is, at least somehow, related to poverty. Michigan is having a tough time and in many places we could see this. But the UP seems to be coping.

[blackshoe]

kenberg, on 2014-August-11, 07:06, said:

As for sex with children, my only thought onn the subject is that I am generally opposed to capital punishment but I am willing to make exceptions.

On the death penalty:

"All I knew was that he wasn't going to kill any more little girls. That suited me. I went to sleep." — Recruit Private Juan Rico, Mobile Infantry, musing on whether the death penalty was a good or bad thing, after one of his basic training classmates deserted and then kidnapped and killed a little girl. The man (his name was Dillinger, iirc) was apprehended and returned to his unit, who tried him at court-martial, convicted him, and hanged him in front of the Regiment, in Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers.

[PassedOut]

kenberg, on 2014-August-11, 17:19, said:

You have spoken of the UP as a very conservative area. I can see how it might be. From what I saw, these are conservatives that I get along with just fine.

Well, we tend to be pretty conservative and self-reliant for sure. We like to hunt and grew up with firearms, so attitudes on that differ from urban areas. But there is also a legacy of antipathy to corporations stemming from the days when mining companies ran the show, used violence to suppress the unions, then left holes and ruins behind. And most folks like the diversity that the universities bring to the area.

kenberg, on 2014-August-11, 17:19, said:

At Lac La Belle they told me when we checked in that there would be a fishfry. Thinking we would get fresh fish from Superior I said great. We got cod balls. Even in my neighborhood where I grew up would have objected to codballs. We caught bass we ate bass. Not codballs. And there was this huge pot of something. It tuned out to be tartar sauce. But I quibble. We had a great time.

Yeah, that's awful. There are a couple of local places that serve fresh Lake Superior fish, one a family enterprise that does the fishing, runs a fish market, and runs a very popular restaurant.

kenberg, on 2014-August-11, 17:19, said:

This all is, at least somehow, related to poverty. Michigan is having a tough time and in many places we could see this. But the UP seems to be coping.

Yes, folks here are pretty enterprising, as folks in impoverished areas generally seem to be. After every snowfall, you see quite a number of pickup trucks fitted with snowplows cruising around looking to pick up a few bucks clearing driveways.

[barmar]

mike777, on 2014-August-10, 22:38, said:

I assume some work you did as child, perhaps much was not voluntary and I assume for most of it you were not paid a salary. I mean work is work whether in the home, school or outside. I doubt parents even today in 2014 don't often make their child do some work they don't want to do.

Household chores are not what anyone means when they refer to "child labor". When I was a kid, I would also occasionally help out a day or two in my father's warehouse during school vacation weeks; this doesn't count, either.

They're talking about children working full-time jobs, possibly being sold into indentured servitude. They don't have the opportunity to go to school, or play with friends -- normal childhood activities. My paper route was an hour or two of work a day. When I was in high school I got a job at Burger King, I probably worked at most 15 hours/week.

[kenberg]

PassedOut, on 2014-August-12, 08:06, said:

Well, we tend to be pretty conservative and self-reliant for sure. We like to hunt and grew up with firearms, so attitudes on that differ from urban areas. But there is also a legacy of antipathy to corporations stemming from the days when mining companies ran the show, used violence to suppress the unions, then left holes and ruins behind. And most folks like the diversity that the universities bring to the area.

I grew up in St. Paul in the middle of the last century. My favorite uncle worked in the open pit iron mines near Brainerd and my first wife's father worked (or had worked before his heart attack) in the mines outside of Ely. The impact of the mines was complex. What else is new? The school system in the mining areas was considered quite good. I ushered at the state basketball tournament in the early 50s and Hibbing, birthplace of Bob Dylan, was always a strong contender. But it was not just sports, the academics were strong. On the other hand, I stayed at my uncle's for a couple of weeks when I was 8 or so. That was when I learned to drink coffee. The water that came from the tap was pretty undrinkable. I was told at the time that the brownish color was due to iron, but I am not so sure. Anyway, no one drank it straight. And then the mines gave out. In the early 1960s many young people came down to the Twin Cities looking for work.

On our trip, we took a tour boat ride at Sault St. Marie that went up the locks, along the shorelines on both sides, and back down again. It had the appearance of a successful region, I gather taconite is making a comeback.

I don't know how viable jobs in this industry are, I know that I want them to be viable. We have to live in the world as it is, of course we do, but I think that sometimes people are too quick to write off a way of life as dead. Mark Twain had something to say about that.

[kenberg]

blackshoe, on 2014-August-11, 21:29, said:

On the death penalty:

"All I knew was that he wasn't going to kill any more little girls. That suited me. I went to sleep." — Recruit Private Juan Rico, Mobile Infantry, musing on whether the death penalty was a good or bad thing, after one of his basic training classmates deserted and then kidnapped and killed a little girl. The man (his name was Dillinger, iirc) was apprehended and returned to his unit, who tried him at court-martial, convicted him, and hanged him in front of the Regiment, in Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers.

My thoughts run like this:

In some cases, I have always been confident that I could throw the switch, watch as he died, and go out for a drink afterwards. Whatever this says about me, I believe it to be true. But should I do this? I think not. I think it would not be good for me, I think it is not good for the people who actually do it, I think it is not good for society to pay people to do it. So I say don't do it.

But there are practical issues. Example: For understandable reasons it is regarded as inhumane to keep a prisoner in isolation. But we owe at least some minimal security to the other prisoners. We do not have to invent a philosophical strawman to think of the prisoner who poses a severe danger to other prisoners. What are we to do with him?

I do not know.

[PassedOut]

kenberg, on 2014-August-12, 09:58, said:

I grew up in St. Paul in the middle of the last century. My favorite uncle worked in the open pit iron mines near Brainerd and my first wife's father worked (or had worked before his heart attack) in the mines outside of Ely. The impact of the mines was complex. What else is new? The school system in the mining areas was considered quite good. I ushered at the state basketball tournament in the early 50s and Hibbing, birthplace of Bob Dylan, was always a strong contender. But it was not just sports, the academics were strong. On the other hand, I stayed at my uncle's for a couple of weeks when I was 8 or so. That was when I learned to drink coffee. The water that came from the tap was pretty undrinkable. I was told at the time that the brownish color was due to iron, but I am not so sure. Anyway, no one drank it straight. And then the mines gave out. In the early 1960s many young people came down to the Twin Cities looking for work.

There is still a lot of copper in this area, but it is deep in the ground, the easily accessed veins having been exhausted during the first part of the 20th century. If the price of copper gets high enough, I expect that newer technologies might make it economical to start extracting it again. During the 1960s, quite a bit of copper was taken from the stamp sands left over from the earlier mining.

While the mines were operating from the 1850s through the 1920s, the economy here was booming because of the copper. Performers like Sarah Bernhardt and Lon Chaney, Sr. played the Calumet Theatre. After the Christmas Eve Italian Hall massacre of 1913, the bodies of the striking miners and their families were laid out there.

[mike777]

Regarding children and work I was referring to the comments to making children work when they are unwilling. Of forcing children to labor when they are unwilling which children often are when it comes to housework, school work or yardwork.

There seems to be more outrage to expecting children in poverty to work in some fashion to help the family then there is in the massive sex trade in children and those customers that pay for sex. Less outrage when it comes to the genocide of children or the forced marriage and rape of young girls ages 8-15.

[blackshoe]

barmar, on 2014-August-12, 09:38, said:

Household chores are not what anyone means when they refer to "child labor". When I was a kid, I would also occasionally help out a day or two in my father's warehouse during school vacation weeks; this doesn't count, either.

They're talking about children working full-time jobs, possibly being sold into indentured servitude. They don't have the opportunity to go to school, or play with friends -- normal childhood activities. My paper route was an hour or two of work a day. When I was in high school I got a job at Burger King, I probably worked at most 15 hours/week.

There is no such thing as "being sold into indentured servitude". If someone is being sold into some kind of servitude, it's slavery. The problem with indentured servitude, and the reason it is prohibited in our constitution, is that in the 17th and 18th centuries, what was called "indentured servitude" was in fact slavery. With safeguards against its degeneration into slavery, indentured servitude is actually a worthwhile tool.

[barmar]

blackshoe, on 2014-August-12, 17:34, said:

There is no such thing as "being sold into indentured servitude". If someone is being sold into some kind of servitude, it's slavery. The problem with indentured servitude, and the reason it is prohibited in our constitution, is that in the 17th and 18th centuries, what was called "indentured servitude" was in fact slavery. With safeguards against its degeneration into slavery, indentured servitude is actually a worthwhile tool.

Whatever you call it, the point is that it's at the opposite end of the spectrum from family chores and voluntary working for extra personal cash. Even children in traditional farming families got to go to school and play, they weren't in the fields 12 hours a day.

[kenberg]

barmar, on 2014-August-13, 10:35, said:

Whatever you call it, the point is that it's at the opposite end of the spectrum from family chores and voluntary working for extra personal cash. Even children in traditional farming families got to go to school and play, they weren't in the fields 12 hours a day.

To put it another way, the sort of work I did, you did, and most every one I knew did, contributes to healthy adolescent development. Twelve hour days in dangerous conditions may have been necessary for survival but there is absolutely nothing else good that can be said about it. I hope that young people grow up to be self-supporting. "Grow up to be" is an essential part of that sentence.

[barmar]

Exactly.

Kids have to do lots of things they don't want to do. But it should just be a part of learning how to function in society -- that's what growing up is about. Eventually they'll have to work as an adult, and there's nothing wrong with practicing this during adolescence.

Or we could expect everyone to be like this kid. He's a 12-year-old boy who was interviewed today on NPR's "Here and Now". He has how own blog and Youtube channel, but that's not very unusual these days. But he also has a few free Android apps, and he's earning around $70/day from the embedded ads. That's about $25K/year, probably an order of magnitude more than I made with my paper route 40 years ago.

[mike777]

I look at the universe and see poverty kids and don't see this.
You look at universe at seem to think school and more is an option.

I see rape, and if possible worse.

I see child cut off head or if alive...bury...alive.

adults claim rape is better. Rape is love or something close to love.

the point is so many claim to live in better universe that they hate really hate options to end poverty
---


They do not live in a universe where 200K or more child are raped and sold for sex in usa....

they live in universe of one..I repeat one.

Posters live in a universe where evil...true evil is a debate.

[barmar]

I'm not sure I get your point. Are you suggesting that we have to choose between ending poverty and ending child molestation, we can't try for both? Or that we shouldn't try to solve one problem (poverty) until we've solved a worse problem (rape)?