[gnasher]

In a few weeks' time I may have to play against pairs who are playing 1D or 1H as a fert. We'll be allowed a written defence at the table.

I know of two schemes:
- Double = balanced, 1x = natural opening, 1NT+ = transfer
- Double = 15+ or 16+ (with Precision-like continuations), everything else = natural and limited

Does anyone have any experience of or opinions about these?

Are there any other good options?

In general, is it sensible to go looking for penalties, or better just to try to bid constructively with the reduced space and use the extra information in the play?

Does anyone have any notes that they feel like sharing, especially of the sort that one can take to the table?

Does anyone know of any useful web resources? I found a few discussions on RGB and here, and also this page:
   http://www.asecomput...hread.php?t=617
which, although it's mainly about a 1♠ fert, contains reasonable details about developing the auction when playing the first method above.

[whereagles]

Against 1♦ you can try the simple approach:

(1♦) ??

Dbl = balanced 1m opener (i.e. 12-14 or 18-19) or any 22+. Responder's 1M now is forcing 1 round.
1M = normal 1M opener.
2m = normal 1m opener with unbalanced hand.

Against 1♥ the scheme doesn't work so well.. maybe you can pass with 12-14 and use dbl for "I have a 1♥ opening".

[Kungsgeten]

I wrote a Precision-like defense, as you describe it, to a 1D fert. The system notes are in Swedish though. A summary:

X = 16-18 bal, 21+ bal, 16+ unbal with 5+ minor, 20+ with 5+ major
1M = 5+ major, 11-19
1NT = 12-15, may be semibal
2m = 6+ minor or 5-4 minors, 11-15
2M = 4 card major and a 5+ minor, 11-15
2NT = 19-20
3C = 5-5 minors, 12-15

After double:

Pass = Is an option
1H = 0-7 (others show 8+)
1S = Not 5+ major, not 6+ minor, not 5-5 minors
1N = 5+ hearts
2C = 5+ spades
2D = 6+ clubs
2H = 6+ diamonds
2S = 5-5 minors
2N = 5-5 majors
3X = 7-card suit, 5-7 hcp

After negative 1H:

1S = 20+
...1N = Double negative
......2C = 20+ non GF, 5+ minor and 4+ side suit
.........Pass = Long clubs or hoping that partner has clubs
.........2D = Ask (other natural)
............2M = 4 card major, 2NT asks for minor
............2N = 5+ diamonds, 4+ clubs
............3C = 5+ clubs, 4 diamonds
......2D = Artificial GF
......2M = 5+ suit, 20+ non GF
......2N = 23-24
......3m = 6+ suit, no side suit, 20+ non GF
...2X = GF
1N = 16-18
2m = 6+ minor or 5-4 minors, 16-19
2M = 4 card major and 5+ minor, 16-19
2N = 21-22
3C = 5-5 minors, 16--19

[PhilKing]

I like scheme one and am knocking something up on that basis. In the crucial auction 1♦-X-pass (where I am assuming pass shows diamond tolerance) I think 4th play should pass quite aggressively. 1M is just nat NF, and 1NT+ are transfers. Transferring to diamonds is a cue. The 1NT response can show 5C NF with 2♠ showing a real club hand.

[PhilKing]

OK. I've looked at qute a few hands where I have just set dealer to 0-5 and the next hand to have an opening bid. Method one works fine most of the time, but it leads to some ugly spots when we double with 12-14 balanced.

Thinking about it, the problem is that double gives them more options and does not give us a strong enough platform to punish them. So I generated a further set limited to 12-14 balanced hands. It turns out we are generally as well or better off just passing and awaiting developments. Playing double as a good 14+ gives us a stronger base both for constructive hands and taking penalties, and passing with less is no bad thing.

Putting it together, I'm thinking of:

X = 15+ balanced
1M = natural. 1♥ can be a four card suit when short in diamonds (3415 or 4414)
1NT = clubs
2♣ = diamonds
2♦ = GF any
2♥/♠3♣/♦ = Acol Twos
2NT = 23-24 bal

[paulg]

 PhilKing, on 2014-September-01, 06:32, said:

OK. I've looked at qute a few hands where I have just set dealer to 0-5 and the next hand to have an opening bid. Method one works fine most of the time, but it leads to some ugly spots when we double with 12-14 balanced.

Thinking about it, the problem is that double gives them more options and does not give us a strong enough platform to punish them. So I generated a further set limited to 12-14 balanced hands. It turns out we are generally as well or better off just passing and awaiting developments. Playing double as a good 14+ gives us a stronger base both for constructive hands and taking penalties, and passing with less is no bad thing.

Just to note that the 1D fert is 5-10 HCP if that affects things.

[helene_t]

We once had a discussion about what we wanted to play if 1 ♦ was not allowed as an opening bid. Most said strong club with four card majors.

Defending a 1 ♦ fert is similar except that we don't have the 1 ♦ response to 1 ♣ except for hands happy to defend 1 ♦

[PhilKing]

 paulg, on 2014-September-01, 06:38, said:

Just to note that the 1D fert is 5-10 HCP if that affects things.

Ah ok, still not managed to get the details. Have the captains been sent the system yet?

Probably ony change would be to drop the acol twos for something intermediate.

[Zelandakh]

 PhilKing, on 2014-September-01, 06:32, said:

1NT = clubs
2♣ = diamonds
2♦ = GF any

How does it go if you rotate these 3 (1NT = strong, artificial; 2♣ = clubs; 2♦ = diamonds)? Another reasonable option would look to be to include unbalanced GF hands within the initial X. It is not like we were punishing them on these anyway and it gives stronger meaning to X then pull while freeing up 1NT (or 2♦) for something else.

[hrothgar]

 helene_t, on 2014-September-01, 06:40, said:

We once had a discussion about what we wanted to play if 1 ♦ was not allowed as an opening bid. Most said strong club with four card majors.

Defending a 1 ♦ fert is similar except that we don't have the 1 ♦ response to 1 ♣ except for hands happy to defend 1 ♦

I think that this suggestion has a lot of merit...

In particular, if you're used to playing a canape based strong club system like Blue Club, it wouldn't be that difficult to simple employ this over a 1D fert...
It might not be optimal, but you'd have a system that you're comfortable with

X is used to show the strong club opening
1H/1S show 4+ card suits, could have a longer minor
1N shows 15-17 balanced
2C shows 5+ clubs
2D shows 6+ diamonds
2M = weak

The big hole is a weak NT hand, unsuitable for a 1M opening.
It might make sense to switch to a weak NT opening, especially if the fert shows 5-10
(Not sure if this should be called a fert, then)

[PhilKing]

 Zelandakh, on 2014-September-01, 08:06, said:

How does it go if you rotate these 3 (1NT = strong, artificial; 2♣ = clubs; 2♦ = diamonds)? Another reasonable option would look to be to include unbalanced GF hands within the initial X. It is not like we were punishing them on these anyway and it gives stronger meaning to X then pull while freeing up 1NT (or 2♦) for something else.

But we would need a whole new system for follow ups.

I prefer the clarity of double being specifically strong balanced, with other bids being fairly easy to follow up.

Similarly, Hrothgar's 1NT strong unbal or double as a strong club idea may have merit, but I would have to teach my team Romex or Precision.

[gnasher]

 PhilKing, on 2014-September-01, 06:32, said:

OK. I've looked at qute a few hands where I have just set dealer to 0-5 and the next hand to have an opening bid. Method one works fine most of the time, but it leads to some ugly spots when we double with 12-14 balanced.

Thinking about it, the problem is that double gives them more options and does not give us a strong enough platform to punish them.

Another problem is that it give us an uncomfortably (or even unplayably) wide range for the double.

Quote

Ah ok, still not managed to get the details. Have the captains been sent the system yet?

They were emailed to the captains on Friday. I've forwarded a copy to Phil.

If anyone else who is playing in the Second Division of the EBU Premier League hasn't received these HUM systems, please contact your captain, or if that doesn't work either Gordon or me.

[PhilKing]

Anyway, I'm now looking at something a bit more organic over both 1♦ and 1♥. Double just shows an opening bid with four plus cards in the suit. Overcalls of 1M show 4+ and opening values. 1NT is 15-18. Direct cue show a 2♣ opening.

Continuations are pretty normal.

[gnasher]

 PhilKing, on 2014-September-01, 12:51, said:

Anyway, I'm now looking at something a bit more organic over both 1♦ and 1♥. Double just shows an opening bid with four plus cards in the suit. Overcalls of 1M show 4+ and opening values. 1NT is 15-18. Direct cue show a 2♣ opening.

Continuations are pretty normal.

Doesn't that mean playing wide-range two-level openings in the suit below the fert? I suppose with (1♦) 2♣ it's not so bad because the shapes are well-defined, but (1♥) 2m will include minor two-suiters as well as one-suiters.

[PhilKing]

 gnasher, on 2014-September-01, 13:22, said:

Doesn't that mean playing wide-range two-level openings in the suit below the fert? I suppose with (1♦) 2♣ it's not so bad because the shapes are well-defined, but (1♥) 2m will include minor two-suiters as well as one-suiters.

Hasn't really come up on the hands I have looked at.

[Trick13]

Here is another defence: http://www.akaranabr...Defencefert.pdf

[mycroft]

Since you can also change your opening system in defence to HUM, (General CoC, 12.17) would you want to? I don't know what PASS is if 1♦ is 5-10 any, but making the most of the times you're in first seat, rather than "passing and defending, whatever they call" seems like a potential win. Whether it's enough to now be playing "defence in first seat" I don't know. Remember, though, "that the pair using the HUM is not permitted to change any of the highly unusual aspects of its system." (General CoC, 12.18)

[benlessard]

Imo waiting to have 15+ or (16+ beurk) to double is falling into the trap head first. X is one of the best call in bridge, its the call that give you the most space and its often the safest call. Yes doubling them often will give them more space but if you have the balanced of power who do you think need the space you or them ? Passing 1D fert with a 1D opener is worse than not opening a 13 count with 4D in 2nd seat because youve lost some additionnal bidding space.

in standard
(P)--P--(P)--?? (you 2nd hand passed with a 13 count balanced that you could have opened 1D, partner in 4th seait is in the dark but at least still can open 1C or 1D.

1D fert
(1D!)-P--(P)--?? partner can X but he cannot open 1C/1D so your side lost space, if its a mistake to NOT open 1D in the first case how can passing in the 2nd case with a 1D opening can be right (unless its a trap pass) ?

I think people are getting confused by thinking that a direct X main goal is to punish them. The way I see it is just bid your hands, you have an opening and 3-4 cards in this suit X them to make a call that describe your hand, the more you describe your hand the better you will be able to punish them or bid your games.

If 1D fert is 5-10 I would X with 13 and 4D and 14 with 3D. I would never X with 2 or less D (unless if they play fert at unfav) and would overcall 1M with 4M when short in D. 1NT should be good hand short in D and unsuitable for 1M overcall. In balancing seat I would play standard balancing double but im not convinced too much about it. Ive never played vs fert 5-10 but I dont think its going to be quite different than other fert ranges.

[benlessard]

Is it possible that fert 5-10 is to make fert over fert a dangerous proposition ?

[jallerton]

 gnasher, on 2014-August-31, 06:40, said:

In a few weeks' time I may have to play against pairs who are playing 1D or 1H as a fert. We'll be allowed a written defence at the table.

Are these pairs playing ferts at all vulnerabilities? What's their full opening call structure?