[Liversidge]

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Is 2♦ the correct bid? It doesn't seem right somehow, but I don't think I can bid 2NT without a stop in spades.

[MrAce]

Liversidge, on 2014-September-14, 11:15, said:

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Is 2♦ the correct bid? It doesn't seem right somehow, but I don't think I can bid 2NT without a stop in spades.

2♦ requires a 5 card suit. I would not do it with a 4 card suit headed by J. 1 NT is better than 2 NT imo, if you are leaning towards NT response. Txxx usually turns out to be a stopper in practice.
But why are you not considering a negative double? Even if your neg doubles requires strictly 4-4 minors, you have one of them and other one is AKQ. This allows your pd to bid NT from right side as well as bidding more economically.

[mikeh]

I agree with Timo. 2♦ is wrong....even if it were AKQx 10xx in the minors, 2♦ is incorrect, but might be acceptable as the least distorted call in that layout, with the same majors.

Lest you think that 1N is an underbid, consider this: when one counts hcp, it is important to do more than just add the numbers. Hcp concentrated in short suits should be slightly downgraded. Here, the AKQ in clubs isn't a wonderful holding, since unless partner has 4+ clubs, they don't create length winners. Compare to AKQx....now the x may well take a trick. Make it AKQxx and both x's may take tricks due to the power of the AKQ. The 4321 count, which is hardly precisely correct anyway (it is a compromise designed primarily for ease of use), assumes average shape...and generally one tends to have most of one's honours in one's long suits. When one doesn't (or hold honours in partner's known length) then it is time to be a little cautious.

Add to this the weak but long spades and this is not really an 11 count, so 1N, ostensibly 8-10, is not a significant underbid.

[helene_t]

I am not sure what to make of a 1nt freebid in a weak nt system. Is p expected to raise it with a balanced 15 count? What about 16?

Anyway, dbl is better

[MrAce]

helene_t, on 2014-September-14, 16:36, said:

I am not sure what to make of a 1nt freebid in a weak nt system. Is p expected to raise it with a balanced 15 count? What about 16?

Anyway, dbl is better

In a weak NT system, if they also open weak NT with 5 card M, then I think opener should raise to 2 NT with s decent 15 and all 16/17. Responder basically says he has 8-10 with a decent 7 or poor 11. This hand is poor 11 to me, despite the good intermediates, due to same reasons Mike already said. But it's close imo.

[helene_t]

Timo: this has the interesting consequence that you could play 1nt as forcing. All the hands with which opener has a pass he would have opened 1nt or flanery. The latter is of course unlikely in this auction.

[Liversidge]

MrAce, on 2014-September-14, 11:44, said:

2♦ requires a 5 card suit. I would not do it with a 4 card suit headed by J. 1 NT is better than 2 NT imo, if you are leaning towards NT response. Txxx usually turns out to be a stopper in practice.
But why are you not considering a negative double? Even if your neg doubles requires strictly 4-4 minors, you have one of them and other one is AKQ. This allows your pd to bid NT from right side as well as bidding more economically.

Thanks for that. I can see how the negative double is ok with only 3 clubs. If partner supports (with no stop in spades), should I pass or bid 2NT on the strength of my weak stop in spades?
Partner told me that a bid of a minor can be made on 10 HCP with 4 cards, it's just a point count. According to the EBU this is correct in Acol. Is it any diffeent after an overcall? I can find very little information on natural bids after interference to partner's opening suit bid, but one source says most natural suit second bids are the same either way.

[helene_t]

I think the idea that a freebid can be made on a 4-card suit is based on either:

1) Negative doubles haven't been introduced yet, or

2) Sometimes you have an awkward hand where you have to lie about the length of a minor suit. Rather than telling the students to lie, some teachers might find it more didactic to tell students that bids are flexible so that they can always find one (or more!) calls that fit. Similar to the idea that it is permissable to bid a 5-card suit twice in Acol.

But in any case you should try to avoid making 2-level freebids on a 4-card suit. Occasionaly such a freebid might be the smallest lie, though.

[msjennifer]

Obviously ,a negative double.! What's the problem !

[msjennifer]

Liversidge, on 2014-September-15, 01:27, said:

Thanks for that. I can see how the negative double is ok with only 3 clubs. If partner supports (with no stop in spades), should I pass or bid 2NT on the strength of my weak stop in spades?
Partner told me that a bid of a minor can be made on 10 HCP with 4 cards, it's just a point count. According to the EBU this is correct in Acol. Is it any diffeent after an overcall? I can find very little information on natural bids after interference to partner's opening suit bid, but one source says most natural suit second bids are the same either way.

Well,if your Partner does bid 2Club you bid 2Hearts and he will know your doubleton heart support, goodish hand plus the advantage of a spade or a diamond lead not going through him straightaway ,if you bid anything else.

[helene_t]

msjennifer, on 2014-September-15, 06:46, said:

Well,if your Partner does bid 2Club you bid 2Hearts and he will know your doubleton heart support

Assuming that partner's 2♣ bid shows five hearts.... it may, but that would require opener to rebid 1NT with a 2434 with two small spades. Unless, of course, the partnership opens 1♣ with that hand.

[Liversidge]

msjennifer, on 2014-September-15, 05:53, said:

Obviously ,a negative double.! What's the problem !

If it had been that obvious to me (a novice), I wouldn't be asking!
I assumed that you had to have four cards in each of the unbid suits.

[helene_t]

Liversidge, on 2014-September-15, 07:31, said:

I assumed that you had to have four cards in each of the unbid suits.

The double is the most flexible call so it is good system design practice to allocate many hands to that call. Defining the double too strict will make other, more space-consuming, calls too ill defined.

When the two unbid suits are a minor and a major, the negative double generally shows four or more cards in the unbid major and says in principle nothing about the unbid minor. However, opener is allowed to bid the unbid minor suit in response to your double and if that brings you into troubles you should try to avoid making the negative double. Here, maybe you aren't that comfortable about opener bidding 2♣ in response to your double. If that 2♣ bid would promise five hearts it is no problem. It is probably a good idea to agree that it does promise five hearts.

The higher the level the more vague the double becomes. If for example it goes:
1♣-(3♠)-dbl
the double says nothing about hearts, it just shows some points and no good alternative. Opener should, therefore, not bid 4♥ here with a balanced hand. A balanced hand will either pass or bid 3NT.

[Vampyr]

helene_t, on 2014-September-15, 01:16, said:

Timo: this has the interesting consequence that you could play 1nt as forcing. All the hands with which opener has a pass he would have opened 1nt or Flannery. The latter is of course unlikely in this auction country.

FYP

[Liversidge]

helene_t, on 2014-September-15, 08:24, said:

The double is the most flexible call so it is good system design practice to allocate many hands to that call. Defining the double too strict will make other, more space-consuming, calls too ill defined.

http://www.bidandmad...tive_double.php
Thanks. It seems there are several different versions of the negative double. I have been using this one, which promises 4 of both minors if both majors have been bid. Restricting and limited,but we thought it was easy to remember until we got more experienced and could extend its use. I have just found out that the NoFear site says that the negative double only promises one undefined minor in this situation. We will need to revisit our agreement.

[akwoo]

In every regular partnership I've been in, agreements tend to get changed by someone having a problem at the table and breaking agreements in some way. Of course, such an incident doesn't change agreements unilaterally; afterwards we talk and figure out whether agreements ought to be changed, or whether the agreement breaking should be kept as a very rare deviation, or some other bid should have been made.

[Wayne_LV]

Liversidge, on 2014-September-14, 11:15, said:

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Is 2♦ the correct bid? It doesn't seem right somehow, but I don't think I can bid 2NT without a stop in spades.

If you play negative doubles you should also employ a technique known as "trap pass". If you pass the first round it does not mean you do not have points, it simply means that you are either hoping for a double from partner when you are holding opp's suit and would like to inflict a penalty double or it means you have a hand that has no really good bid. If your LHO passes as well then your partner has 3 options as follows:

1. With 3+ of opp's suit and a min hand (12-15 pts) partner will pass and defend - in which case you have more trumps than the opp's and a postitive score is pretty much assured.

2. With less than 3 of opp's suit and a min hand partner then reopens with a double which you may convert to penatly meeting the rule of 9 (bid level + number of trumps >= 9) or takeout to another suit - in this case a bid of 2♦.

3. With 16+ pts, partner will bid again and with your 11 pts you can pursue a game, most likely 3NT if partner has heart stop and at least one spade.

This method has worked well for me and my regular partners and seldom causes the loss of a board.

[helene_t]

Passing with this hand is not a good idea. Partner won't reopen with 15-16 points and three spades in which case 1s goes down undoubled and we have game. And if he does reopen we have to bid 2s to show our values which will make it murky which of opener's subsequent bids are forcing.

[the hog]

Wayne_LV, on 2014-September-15, 22:13, said:

If you play negative doubles you should also employ a technique known as "trap pass". If you pass the first round it does not mean you do not have points, it simply means that you are either hoping for a double from partner when you are holding opp's suit and would like to inflict a penalty double or it means you have a hand that has no really good bid. If your LHO passes as well then your partner has 3 options as follows:

1. With 3+ of opp's suit and a min hand (12-15 pts) partner will pass and defend - in which case you have more trumps than the opp's and a postitive score is pretty much assured.

2. With less than 3 of opp's suit and a min hand partner then reopens with a double which you may convert to penatly meeting the rule of 9 (bid level + number of trumps >= 9) or takeout to another suit - in this case a bid of 2♦.

3. With 16+ pts, partner will bid again and with your 11 pts you can pursue a game, most likely 3NT if partner has heart stop and at least one spade.

This method has worked well for me and my regular partners and seldom causes the loss of a board.

Passing with this hand is terrible bridge. I can construct numerous hands where 1S makes overticks.

[1eyedjack]

I have generally operated under the principle that a trap pass that contains values is restricted to a hand type that wishes to float a reopening double from partner. What with the availability of double, NT bids, cue bids, support bids and new suit bids, there is generally something to fit the bill if you have some values and are not looking to penalise.

This hand is just about the only exception where nothing really is ideal, but it would not be sensible to fit it into a trap pass and bid just on the off-chance that this low frequency hand arises. This means that if you trap and then pull partner's double he can rely upon you for weakness.

On this hand I think that it is close between 1N and double. I think that 1N has the edge, but maybe it is a style thing and I have an open mind on that