[hihihiji]

Another thing intriguing me is that in "fundamental" books in bridge, "experts" suggest when you are holding 4♣ and 4♦ (of course 4432 or 4441), you open 1♦. From what I remember, their main logic is that you can bid 2♣ after 1♦ without reversing bid.

But as far as I am concerned, we rebid 1NT for all balanced hands (maybe some semi-balanced), so rebidding 1 major means the hand is unbalanced and the two suits should be as least 54 (except 1♦-1♥/♠/NT-2♣ which can be 45 if ♦ is strong enough and the hand is not enough to reverse, as we play canape for this series), which means

1. when we hold (32)44, we rebid 1NT
2. when we hold 4144, after 1m-1♥, we rebid 1♠ or 1NT
3. when we hold 1444, after 1m-1♠, we rebid 1NT

I know rebidding 1NT with a 4441 hand is not traditional, but as least the singleton is from the partner's suit which should give some guarantee and protection. Another advantage of opening 1♦ is that you can prevent opp overcalling 1♦ (though when I hold 44 minor, the possibility of overcalling 1♦ is limited)

OTOH if I open 1♣ if partner has a game forcing hand with 2 suits (e.g. 5♣/♦+4 majors) we can find a fit in minor for bidding slam. Also we could stop at 2♣/♦ for partials.

Do I missing something important that opening 1♦ is superior to 1♣ that I do not know?

Spoiler

Though at last we agreed to play better minor, i.e. open with the better suits when 33/44 minor, for easier leading, LOL.

[Bbradley62]

One thing, which is sometimes helpful with slam bidding, is that if you consistently open 1♦ when 44 in minors and 1♣ when 33, it's easier for partner to diagnose your exact distribution as the auction progresses.

[whereagles]

1. The idea behind opening 1♦ is indeed rebidding 2♣ without reversing. This happens mostly on competitive situations.

2. With (32)44 you'll rebid 1NT, but with 4441 it depends which side of the pond you are. In the US, people aren't averse to rebidding 1NT on a singleton in pard's suit. In Europe, however, it's a sin... NT rebids require 2+ cards, period.

3. Sometimes, for tactical reasons, one may open 1♣ if (32)44 with 12 H. The reason is if pard bids 1♦-2♣, you're gonna bid 2NT on 12-14. Some of the time pard, with 11-12, will play you for 13-14 and push you to a bad 3NT. By opening 1♣ this problem is mitigated.

[helene_t]

1d almost promises four so partner can raise more easily than he can raise clubs

[hihihiji]

Just to clarify a little bit, we are playing 5533. I fully understand opening 1♦ if we play 5542, but we think it is a little bit unnatural and there will be too many cases opening 1♣.

[gnasher]

Bbradley62, on 2014-October-26, 10:09, said:

One thing, which is sometimes helpful with slam bidding, is that if you consistently open 1♦ when 44 in minors and 1♣ when 33, it's easier for partner to diagnose your exact distribution as the auction progresses.

It also makes it easier for the defenders in 3NT to diagnose your distribution as the play progresses.

[gnasher]

whereagles, on 2014-October-26, 12:05, said:

2. With (32)44 you'll rebid 1NT, but with 4441 it depends which side of the pond you are. In the US, people aren't averse to rebidding 1NT on a singleton in pard's suit. In Europe, however, it's a sin... NT rebids require 2+ cards, period.

That may be true in some parts of Europe, but certainly not in all of Europe.

[gnasher]

One reason that people open 1♦ with 4-4 is because of auctions like

1m 1M dbl pass

1m 2M dbl pass

1m 2♥ 2♠ pass

when you don't have a stop in their major.

Some of us solve this problem by rebidding notrumps anyway; others solve it by opening 1♦ and rebidding in clubs.

[wank]

gnasher, on 2014-October-28, 01:37, said:

One reason that people open 1♦ with 4-4 is because of auctions like

1m 1M dbl pass

1m 2M dbl pass

1m 2♥ 2♠ pass

when you don't have a stop in their major.

Some of us solve this problem by rebidding notrumps anyway; others solve it by opening 1♦ and rebidding in clubs.

if you're happy rebidding NT on such auctions with no stop (waiting for partner to check for a stop on the next round), it's better to open 1c to save space, in particular because if partner responds 1 diamond you can raise and if partner has a club fit, he can raise.

[whereagles]

gnasher, on 2014-October-28, 01:29, said:

That may be true in some parts of Europe, but certainly not in all of Europe.

Well, sure. But that's the tendency I notice. Admit I'm not totally familiar with the situation in the UK though (it's still a UK, right?)

[hihihiji]

wank, on 2014-October-28, 03:05, said:

if you're happy rebidding NT on such auctions with no stop (waiting for partner to check for a stop on the next round), it's better to open 1c to save space, in particular because if partner responds 1 diamond you can raise and if partner has a club fit, he can raise.

For my partnership, rebidding 1NT over opp's suit does not guarantee a stopper. So we are happy opening 1♣ with 44m.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

hihihiji, on 2014-October-27, 22:29, said:

Just to clarify a little bit, we are playing 5533. I fully understand opening 1♦ if we play 5542, but we think it is a little bit unnatural and there will be too many cases opening 1♣.

What does 5533 mean ??

[whereagles]

means 5 cards for H/S, 3 cards for C/D

[aguahombre]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2014-October-28, 14:50, said:

What does 5533 mean ??

whereagles, on 2014-October-28, 15:02, said:

means 5 cards for H/S, 3 cards for C/D

Oh, good. I thought it was time to tune up the dealing machine.

[Vampyr]

gnasher, on 2014-October-28, 01:29, said:

[/size]
That may be true in some parts of Europe, but certainly not in all of Europe.

whereagles, on 2014-October-28, 04:52, said:

Well, sure. But that's the tendency I notice. Admit I'm not totally familiar with the situation in the UK though (it's still a UK, right?)

I think that most people tend to think of the UK as distinct from Europe.

[mikeh]

whereagles, on 2014-October-26, 12:05, said:

2. With (32)44 you'll rebid 1NT, but with 4441 it depends which side of the pond you are. In the US, people aren't averse to rebidding 1NT on a singleton in pard's suit.

citation required


some players may do it, but it isn't remotely standard

[mycroft]

It's more than remotely standard in some places in NA - not yours, or where I learned bridge, but I would expect that it's about a 40-60 split in Calgary as to whether 1NT is obvious or impossible. I wouldn't care to say which way the split is, either.

[beatrix45]

The reason that SAYC and 2/1 players almost always bid 1♦ is the negative double. Usually, the negative double only absolutely guarantees the other major, but sometimes a competitive auction takes an unexpected turn at an unexpectedly high level. You don't want to get jammed up. There are a fair number of auctions where partner is basing his/her aggressive bidding on either a fit with your first suit or having both the unbid suits.

Keep in mind, a 1♣ open only promises three, but a one ♦ open almost guarantees four. If partner can't smoke out the absence of the dreaded 4-4-3-2 distribution in a competitive auction, your problems are more than just systemic.

[aguahombre]

Actually much more goes into the choice of ♣ vs ♦ with 4-4 and balanced.

For instance, consider Responder with 6 or 7 points and length in one of the minors. He can raise 1C or bid 1D. He can raise 1D, but cannot bid 2c unless the opponents are kind enough to Double 1D.

Most Standard systems have better methods when the uncontested auction has begun with 1C than with 1D. The 1NT response can be 8-10 over 1C (6-7/11-12 stalls with 1D); the 1NT response to 1D can be 6 to 10, and might be unbalanced with a whole lot of clubs. A non-forcing 2NT over 1m truly sucks.

With "any" balanced minimum, Opener can rebid 1NT after a 1D response to 1C. 1C-1D-2D can be a true reverse.

Negative doubles don't seem to present a problem after either a 1C opening or a 1D opening. When their overcall is raised, Responder has balancing choices when it comes back around --a second X, a freeraise, a freebid, and a scrambling 2NT are all tools available.

[whereagles]

mikeh, on 2014-October-28, 23:20, said:

citation required

some players may do it, but it isn't remotely standard

I'm not claiming it's standard. Just that people don't go all-out to avoid it, as they do in Europe.