[Siegmund]

Here's an auction for you from this past weekend.

1♥ - 2♦
2♠ - 3♥
4♥ - 4NT

And now your partner doubles 4NT.

Assuming the auction continues on to 6♥, what lead is your partner asking for?

Do you have a formal agreement with your regular partner, or do you consider it just a matter of bridge logic?

[Trinidad]

This double is known in the Netherlands as JAT: Jansma Agreement Test (after top player and matchpoint expert Jan Jansma).

It is not lead directing. It is to test what agreements the opponents have when you double their ace asking bid. It is surprising to see how many pairs have some kind of agreement on interfering bids and get a misunderstanding about what happens when opponents double.

Rik

[Free]

It's just a "lets have some fun with opponents"-double, doesn't ask anything.

[barmar]

Trinidad, on 2015-February-25, 03:59, said:

This double is known in the Netherlands as JAT: Jansma Agreement Test (after top player and matchpoint expert Jan Jansma).

It is not lead directing. It is to test what agreements the opponents have when you double their ace asking bid. It is surprising to see how many pairs have some kind of agreement on interfering bids and get a misunderstanding about what happens when opponents double.

What else is there beside ROPI?

[Free]

barmar, on 2015-February-25, 09:22, said:

What else is there beside ROPI?

RIPO, REPO, ROPE and system on. You're primairily hoping that one plays ROPI and the other one plays system on.

[PhilKing]

barmar, on 2015-February-25, 09:22, said:

What else is there beside ROPI?

Not much, but almost anything else is better (eg ROPE as mentioned). My preference is for natural - redouble to play, pass neutral (but bad), others unchanged.

[Trinidad]

barmar, on 2015-February-25, 09:22, said:

What else is there beside ROPI?

You mean other than PORI?

Well, my preference is:

Ignore the double and show your aces. The double is not sitting in the way and presumably the ace asker was prepared for all the responses when he asked. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
That leaves redouble to mean: "I sure think we can make 4NTXX! and it might well score better than bidding a slam."

(And, fortunately, my two favorite partners think the same way. )

Rik

[gordontd]

Trinidad, on 2015-February-25, 09:41, said:

That leaves redouble to mean: "I sure think we can make 4NTXX! and it might well score better than bidding a slam."

Which is of course the ideal defence to the methods described in this thread.

[lamford]

PhilKing, on 2015-February-25, 09:26, said:

Not much, but almost anything else is better (eg ROPE as mentioned). My preference is for natural - redouble to play, pass neutral (but bad), others unchanged.

I agree that redouble to play is mandatory. I think pass should be "would you like to redouble, pard?" and the other bids exactly what they would have been without the double.

[Siegmund]

So is there really NObody here who uses this double to say anything other than "let's see if the opponents will have an accident"?

That's one explanation why the wrong lead got made at my table, I guess...

[Zelandakh]

What lead do you think it should mean Siegmund? A double of 6♥ is available for a diamond lead and a spade lead must surely be unsound. That leaves the unbid suit clubs, not particularly awe-inspiring but at least makes it less likely that the opps can sit for 4NTXX. Of course if we actually had long and solid clubs we might well have bid them at some point.

[Siegmund]

With one partner I actually have the agreement that in an auction like 1♥-2NT(Jac)-4♥-4NT, double asks for a club lead, arbitrarily the cheapest unbid suit, in an auction where they have bid only one or two suits (if they've bid two suits, doubling the final slam asks for that suit.)

But on the given hand where they have bid 3 suits, I was hoping that since a double of the final contract was for diamonds, that this double must ask for "an unusual lead, but not diamonds" - therefore spades. If I did nothing at all I'd think partner might gravitate toward clubs.

In fact I had the cashing ♠AK, partner led a diamond, and they wrapped 13 tricks in about 10 seconds. And we still got an excellent board. The recap sheet showed five 510s, seven 1010s, and one 1310. Every pair in the room took 13 tricks because nobody it seems had a way to ask for anything except a diamond lead or the normal lead.

[Zelandakh]

Just to point out that 4NTXX+1 would have been -1120 and therefore a very bad board. This is the reason why agreeing the X to ask for a spade lead is basically unsound.

[PhilKing]

I had this had a similar one in the Tolle Final last year and doubled the final contract with two cashing spades - the point was losers in dummy's suit could not be disappearing and clubs is the default lead.

Needless to say, partner did not see it that way. And I might be being a bit thick, but I don't see how -1010 was an excellent board.

[WellSpyder]

PhilKing, on 2015-February-26, 10:33, said:

I might be being a bit thick, but I don't see how -1010 was an excellent board.

Surely that is clear, Phil? There were five 510s, seven 1010s and one 1310. So assuming Siegmund's score was one of the seven 1010s he scored 8/24 available MPs (English scoring) or 4/12 (US scoring). His score for the event was obviously well below 33% for this to be an excellent score.

[Siegmund]

I was one of the -510s. My double scared the opponents out of bidding a failing slam -- which made me expect a terrible board -- but it turned out nobody was failing.

I did have JTxxxx in clubs as a backup plan if a redouble had come back. Admittedly that would still have cost me 1100 on a bad day and 500 on a good one, but 500 or 800 is an improvement over allowing them to score up a slam on a non-spade lead.

[barmar]

Siegmund, on 2015-February-26, 19:52, said:

I did have JTxxxx in clubs as a backup plan if a redouble had come back. Admittedly that would still have cost me 1100 on a bad day and 500 on a good one, but 500 or 800 is an improvement over allowing them to score up a slam on a non-spade lead.

The very definition of a stripe-tailed ape double.

[PhilKing]

Siegmund, on 2015-February-26, 19:52, said:

I did have JTxxxx in clubs as a backup plan if a redouble had come back. Admittedly that would still have cost me 1100 on a bad day and 500 on a good one, but 500 or 800 is an improvement over allowing them to score up a slam on a non-spade lead.

But nobody interpretted your double as asking for a spade lead.

[Siegmund]

Quote

But nobody interpretted your double as asking for a spade lead.

That has sure taken me by surprise.


At the table, all 4 of us were in agreement that it asked for a lead, but not about what suit.