[keithhus]

Appreciate advice please.

I held :-
S xxx, H Qxxxx, D. Q, C Kxxx

Partner opened 1C and Ops over called 1 S.
I know I should bid major before minor but did not feel I had enough to bid at the 2 level. Hence I bid 3 C. Partner raised to 5C (vulnerable) and went down by 3, ouch.
Comment was made that I should have shown my H. I understand the criticism but feel that I would have overstated my point count whereas support for my partner''s suit was within the "rules"- I.e. 7 points plus 3 (singleton). Your comments would be appreciated.

[neilkaz]

I'd certainly not count 5 points for Q singleton! Your hand, at best is worth 8 points in support of ♣.

[Zelandakh]

After 1♣ - (1♠) you are perfectly correct that bidding hearts at the 2 level would show a much better hand than this. There are however other ways of showing hearts. For example if you agree to play Fit Jumps with your partner, a jump in a new suit shows a good 5+ card holding plus good trump support for partner's suit. Standards vary slightly for such a call but generally you need the offenive values to raise partner to the assumed level, so a 3♥ response would show clubs + hearts and the strength to justify playing at the 4 level. Not this hand obviously.

The simplest way of showing hearts with a hand not suited to a 2♥ response is a negative double. In this auction double shows 4+ hearts and denies the ability to bid hearts directly. In practise that means precisely 4 hearts and any strength or 5+ hearts and a weak-ish hand. My guess is that the comment you received alluded to this possibility and not to an immediate 2♥ response. My guess is also that you and your partner had a misunderstanding about the 3♣ raise. Many older players still play this as showing a limit raise, which is probably the meaning your partner had in mind when raising to 5. It looks like you play it as a weak raise instead, which is a more modern treatment.

In any case, I would suggest looking up negative doubles and seeing how they are used, especially at the one level. They offer a simple and effective way of solving many such bidding problems.

[mikeh]

At the risk of getting some flak....my advice to the OP is to keep on posting but to consider posting in the Novice/Beginner area of the forum.

I take it from the question that you either don't know or don't play negative doubles. This hand is worth a negative double, which is usually played as showing heart length.

The usual way to play a double of 1♠ is that you show 4 or more hearts. If, as here, you hold more than 4, then you lack the strength needed to bid 2♥.

Partner can't tell at this point whether you hold, say, 7 or 8 hcp, or as many as say 18 or 19, or anywhere inbetween. Partner's duty is to assume you hold 4 hearts and 7-8 points and bid accordingly. You may get a chance to show extras, or significantly longer hearts, at your next turn if it is safe and reasonable to do so.

Negative doubles are covered in some intermediate level bidding texts, and are worth learning. I would say that 99% of players at the intermediate or higher skill level play negative doubles.....I think these days negative doubles and stayman are the two 'universal' conventions known by almost all.

As for valuation, as neilkaz says, don't count the stiff Q as hcp and distribution points. Remember that the purpose of assigning 'points' to various holdings is an attempt to estimate the trick taking potential of the hand. It is unlikely that a singleton Q will add to your trick-taking potential as much as it would were it Qx or Qxx (let alone QJx or KQxx, etc). Furthermore, if you are playing a 5 card major style, as many do and many don't, partner's 1♣ doesn't promise a lot of clubs, so Kxxx is not a holding to get excited about until and unless he shows extra length.

[keithhus]

Thank you for your replies. Apologies, I posted in the wrong forum. I do know negative doubles but my understanding is that it means I have no support for either suit bid, whereas I did have support for Clubs. I take the point about the singleton Q. Thanks again.

[mike777]

Actually a good and fair question.

A bit old fashion perhaps but I will pass with 7 hcp

But other posters will point out they think this hand is just fine to make a neg double

Note:

xx...AKxx...Jxx...AQxx

gives you a play for 4h.

[mikeh]

keithhus, on 2015-March-25, 12:04, said:

Thank you for your replies. Apologies, I posted in the wrong forum. I do know negative doubles but my understanding is that it means I have no support for either suit bid, whereas I did have support for Clubs. I take the point about the singleton Q. Thanks again.

Negative doubles are another gadget that is now played in a manner quite different from the way it was originally proposed.

The common approach evolved quite a bit over the 1st 20-30 years after Roth proposed the use of a double by responder as a form of takeout, as opposed to the age-old penalty meaning. There was certainly a time when the double promised both unbid suits. That has come to seem too restrictive, so when there is only one unbid major, the usual approach is for the double to promise that major, always, and the double may or may not carry implications about the 4th suit and/or opener's suit. It isn't as difficult as this may sound, but this isn't the place for a detailed description of the various negative double scenarios that can arise. For now, take it that the double 'promises' the unbid major, if only one, and that it is not dogmatic about other suits.

For example, by doubling with the OP, if partner fits hearts, great, and if he bids diamonds, you can take him back to clubs. Very few players would assume the double implied anything about diamonds, btw. 40 years ago, quite a few players would argue that point, but not today.