[mike777]

Cyberyeti, on 2015-May-26, 14:54, said:

(Views not necessarily mine, but summing up what I see as a more general perception)

There never has been a pan-european ideal in the UK and this was never sold to us, it was introduced by stealth. Britain has never wanted any of the political union, we joined an economic community, and that's what we want to be in. There is a strong island mentality that means we have fought tooth and nail for our independence, and don't want to give it away to Eurocrats.

There have then been a series of rulings from the European courts seen as perverse over here (inability to deport criminals for reasons seen as silly, giving prisoners the vote in the face of overwhelming opposition from parliament and people etc), and we want to take back the ability to make those decisions here. Many people wrongly connect the ECHR and the EU.

Our fish reserves have been plundered by Spanish trawlers that buy British quotas, ignore the net regulations and go back to Spain rather than landing their catches here, killing the British fishing industry.

There is a feeling that if something is law in the EU, we observe the regs but other countries just ignore them when it suits them.

So are you in or out or sort of in such as Norway?

[Cyberyeti]

mike777, on 2015-May-26, 15:08, said:

So are you in or out or sort of in such as Norway?

For me, if there is no productive renegociation, out or sort of in. If there is decent renegociation, in.

What I think will happen is that Cameron will get something, but not so little or so much that it's clear what he should do next, and the Conservative party will implode. What happens next will be anybody's guess.

[nige1]

Cyberyeti, on 2015-May-26, 14:54, said:

There never has been a pan-european ideal in the UK and this was never sold to us, it was introduced by stealth. Britain has never wanted any of the political union, we joined an economic community, and that's what we want to be in. There is a strong island mentality that means we have fought tooth and nail for our independence, and don't want to give it away to Eurocrats.

It's amusing that Margaret Thatcher and subsequent prime-ministers justified their attitude to Europe, as protecting our sovereignty. Since when, we've privatized transport, communications (telephone and post), power (nuclear, electric, gas and oil) and information technology to foreign and off-sure companies. Many vital strategic military functions have been outsourced to foreign companies. Almost all the money spent outsourcing health and information technology was wasted. Private finance initiatives have been a disaster, except to government cronies who were given national assets for a penny in the pound. Europe has little to teach us about corruption. Although I'm told the USA is worse

[mike777]

nige1, on 2015-May-26, 18:16, said:

It's amusing that Margaret Thatcher and subsequent prime-ministers justified their attitude to Europe, as protecting our sovereignty. Since when, we've privatized transport, communications (telephone and post), power (nuclear, electric, gas and oil) and information technology to foreign and off-sure companies. Many vital strategic military functions have been outsourced to foreign companies. Almost all the money spent outsourcing health and information technology was wasted. Private finance initiatives have been a disaster, except to government cronies who were given national assets for a penny in the pound. Europe has little to teach us about corruption. Although I'm told the USA is worse

So I am unclear

You are in favor of staying in the EU or dropping out?

[mike777]

Cyberyeti, on 2015-May-26, 17:40, said:

For me, if there is no productive renegociation, out or sort of in. If there is decent renegociation, in.

What I think will happen is that Cameron will get something, but not so little or so much that it's clear what he should do next, and the Conservative party will implode. What happens next will be anybody's guess.

ok it seems you have all 3 options open.

[Vampyr]

I will be content to stay in the EU if Cameron gets our fisheries back. I recently wrote him to inform him that this will be a make-or-break issue for many Britons. I will post when I get a reply.

[mike777]

Vampyr, on 2015-May-26, 19:17, said:

I will be content to stay in the EU if Cameron gets our fisheries back. I recently wrote him to inform him that this will be a make-or-break issue for many Britons. I will post when I get a reply.

do not know all the details in that issue...but I thought you have the fisheries...just no one(outside fishers) cares...
If you cannot protect them....I doubt anyone else will care.
---

again I don't know the issue as well as you do but how does dropping out of the EU increase protection of the fisheries?

[Vampyr]

Did you see the comment about the Spanish trawlers? They would not have access if we left the EU.

I am not a fisherman, but this issue has been a big deal for me for many years.

[mike777]

Vampyr, on 2015-May-26, 20:34, said:

Did you see the comment about the Spanish trawlers? They would not have access if left the EU.

I am not a fisherman, but this issue has been a big deal for me for many years.

sorry but your logic makes zero sense.

they have all the access.

Again how will the UK leaving the EU stop them from taking fish?

If the UK cannot or will not stop them who will?
--------------

again I only know the facts you present.

[Vampyr]

mike777, on 2015-May-26, 20:43, said:

sorry but your logic makes zero sense.

they have all the access.

Again how will the UK leaving the EU stop them from taking fish?

If the UK cannot or will not stop them who will?
--------------

again I only know the facts you present.

The UK cannot stop the Spanish trawlers, as the UK fisheries belong to the EU now. If the UK leave the EU, others will not have access. They would be arrested for fishing in UK territorial waters. Do you finally understand?

[mike777]

Vampyr, on 2015-May-26, 20:53, said:

The UK cannot stop the Spanish trawlers, as the UK fisheries belong to the EU now. If the UK leave the EU, others will not have access. They would be arrested for fishing in UK territorial waters. Do you finally understand?

no

you have provided zero evidence they can be stopped

You seem to assume arrests and convictions happen by majic.
-----

In any case if the fish belong to the EU not the UK....why should they give them up?
You seem to assume they will with zero fight.
--------------

You keep saying UK fisheries but then you tell me the fact is they belong to the EU n ot UK
-----------

Your logic is:
1) Uk leaves and so the fish now belong to UK
2) the fishermen will stop
3) If they do not stop they will go to jail for a long time.

All of the above seems naïve at best and wishful thinking in reality.

I doubt the fisherman think the UK is strong enough to enforce, they spend too little on navy and local coast guard and police and courts.

[Cyberyeti]

Mike, prior to the EU, Britain had a 200 mile sea area to the north west for their exclusive use. This became a European area on joining the EU but would revert to the UK if we left. The EU common fisheries policy has been a disaster for the British fleet for several other reasons as well.

Fishing rights are serious business, wars were fought with Denmark/Iceland over them in relatively recent times.

[mike777]

Cyberyeti, on 2015-May-26, 23:12, said:

Mike, prior to the EU, Britain had a 200 mile sea area to the north west for their exclusive use. This became a European area on joining the EU but would revert to the UK if we left. The EU common fisheries policy has been a disaster for the British fleet for several other reasons as well.

Fishing rights are serious business, wars were fought with Denmark/Iceland over them in relatively recent times.

ok but you miss my main point
In fact you miss your point


the war is not over

If leaving the EU is in the UK national interest ok...but so far no one says that
You do not say that!

----------------

------------

for some unknown reason stated.....posters think
1) leave EU
2) Uk won war on fishing
-------------------
-------------------

that is naive

yet no poster is willing to claim UK has the ability or will to win the war
1

[MrAce]

mike777, on 2015-May-26, 20:56, said:

I doubt the fisherman think the UK is strong enough to enforce, they spend too little on navy and local coast guard and police and courts.

I think you are overly underestimating the capabilities of Royal navy.

[mike777]

MrAce, on 2015-May-26, 23:59, said:

I think you are overly underestimating the capabilities of Royal navy.

again you do not quote me in full so silly

in what world is this just navy

please quote me in full and not out of context

in any case the navy is losing capability ...not increasing

in any event this is not about the navy using atom bombs or subs...or planes but to police and convict and stop fishing..

so far the record per this thread only is horrible

if dropping out of EU improves navy ok then say so

tht seems what people naïve trust in...drop out of EU....navy gets better in putting in jail

---------------

I will repeat this again...sigh...if you think dropping out of the EU is best ok....but so far you show something close to zero that things will be better.

[helene_t]

North sea fishing stocks is a resource we have to manage together. And a ship with a Spanish owner and philipine crew can get a British convenience flag if needed. I suppose one could require fish caught in British waters to land in Britain but is it practical ?

[Trinidad]

mike777, on 2015-May-26, 14:52, said:

Sympathy or sentiment should play zero role in decision.

Cyberyeti, on 2015-May-26, 14:54, said:

(Views not necessarily mine)
Our fish reserves have been plundered by Spanish trawlers that buy British quotas, ignore the net regulations and go back to Spain rather than landing their catches here, killing the British fishing industry.

Vampyr, on 2015-May-26, 19:17, said:

I will be content to stay in the EU if Cameron gets our fisheries back. I recently wrote him to inform him that this will be a make-or-break issue for many Britons. I will post when I get a reply.

So, the UK is willing to leave the EU over fishing?!?

This is the 21st century, right? And we are talking about a highly developed country? And fishing contributes how much to the UK economy? So, to supposedly get back the UK fishing industry (as if it has any future to begin with), the UK is willing to make sacrifices in their trades and services (the "London inner city") and hi-tech industry.

And sentiments have nothing to do with it...

Rik

[cherdano]

Marine fishing contributes to 0.049% of UK's GDP.
(Source)
Is it worth doing damage to the entire economy to take a principled stand on protecting UK fisheries?

[Cyberyeti]

cherdano, on 2015-May-27, 03:30, said:

Marine fishing contributes to 0.049% of UK's GDP.
(Source)
Is it worth doing damage to the entire economy to take a principled stand on protecting UK fisheries?

It does now because the industry has been largely eliminated.

[helene_t]

Cyberyeti, on 2015-May-26, 14:54, said:

There is a feeling that if something is law in the EU, we observe the regs but other countries just ignore them when it suits them.

The danish newspaper "Politiken" made a version of Snakes and Ladders called the EU Game, in which each player gets a proposed EU directive and competes on getting their directive through the political/bureaucratic maze as fast as possible. The "Goal" contains a text that reads something like: "Congrats, your directive has passed, it will now be immediately implemented in Denmark, Ireland and the UK. Germany, France, Spain, Belgium and the Netherlands will follow within the next three-four years. Italy, Portugal and Greece will have to be taken to the Luxembourg court though, so that will take a bit longer."

It was a couple of decades ago, though, so I don't now how accurate it is now.

Of course the other side of the coin is that Denmark uk Ireland often obstruct the negotiations with selfish requirements. Maybe Italian politicians don't bother to obstruct because they don't feel obliged to comply anyway? Just speculating.

This all said it is not my impression that politics in eu ismore rridiculous than everywhere else. Of course I shouldn't base my political opinions on silly board games. I found it funny, though.