[Stephen Tu]

---

[Cyberyeti]

Playing standardish methods I think I'd bid 3♥ then 4♦.

[mr1303]

3H. I need to keep 3NT in the picture.

[mgoetze]

 mr1303, on 2015-April-19, 07:45, said:

3H. I need to keep 3NT in the picture.

I guess it would help to know whether we are playing MPs or IMPs... in the latter case I do believe I would pull 3NT to 4♦.

[nige1]

 Stephen Tu, on 2015-April-19, 06:41, said:

---

IMO 4♦ = 10, 3♥ = 9, 5♦ = 7, 4♥ = 3. A jump to the four-level in ♦ accords with your slam aspirations and describes your hand well.

[Cyberyeti]

 mr1303, on 2015-April-19, 07:45, said:

3H. I need to keep 3NT in the picture.

Might depend on your agreement what 2N first time means in this sequence, I think a lot of the time you want to be in 3N partner will not have doubled.

[PhantomSac]

I would not be willing to play in 3N for better or for worse. 3H then 4D "feels" like a better way to bid the hand but I'm not sure why, just in general I think 4D sounds more like extreme shape/concentration and 3H then 4D sounds more like a strong hand. But I cannot say I have an agreement about the difference in 3H>4D compared to 4D.

[Stephen Tu]

For those choosing 4♦, what bid should partner use to find out if you have a heart control?

If you bid 3♥ followed by 4♦, should that promise heart control or just show a good hand?

[Phil]

 PhantomSac, on 2015-April-19, 18:13, said:

I would not be willing to play in 3N for better or for worse. 3H then 4D "feels" like a better way to bid the hand but I'm not sure why, just in general I think 4D sounds more like extreme shape/concentration and 3H then 4D sounds more like a strong hand. But I cannot say I have an agreement about the difference in 3H>4D compared to 4D.

I don't have an agreement either, but I'd feel a lot better about driving to slam if partner happens to skip 3N. If I start with 4♦, I don't have a clue about what kind of heart duplication is across.

[WesleyC]

3H followed by 4D/(or maybe 4H).

I think this shows serious slam interest and invites partner to bid 4H (kickback).

For me a jump to 4D would be consistent with [AKQxx --- QTxxxx xx] or similar - big distribution rather than slam interest.

[mikeh]

Put me in with the 3♥ followed by 4♦. If Justin doesn't have any agreement in his partnerships, as to this or an immediate 4♦, then it will be no surprise to learn that few do

To me, 4♦ sounds weaker, while 3♥ then (if possible) 4♦ is a powerful slam try, which is what I have. Note that if partner has AQxx in diamonds, the finesse is much better than 50% on the auction.

[SteveMoe]

Surprised to see 4♥ MIA. That's my choice. Splinter.

[PhantomSac]

 SteveMoe, on 2015-April-20, 21:40, said:

Surprised to see 4♥ MIA. That's my choice. Splinter.

Auto splinter in spades?

[mike777]

3d
no problem yet


slam is possible
---


3d not an option?

again I choose 3d as slam option.

come on guys....3d slam open.
----

I open
pard x
I bid new suit

this Is not weak./
--

with crap I do not open or rebid major
I limit my opener

[PhilKing]

 mike777, on 2015-April-21, 02:10, said:

3d
no problem yet


slam is possible
---


3d not an option?

again I choose 3d as slam option.

come on guys....3d slam open.
----

I open
pard x
I bid new suit

this Is not weak./
--

with crap I do not open or rebid major
I limit my opener

3♦ is weak.

I mean, what would you bid on:

♠Axxxx
♥xx
♦AKJx
♣xx

If you bid 2♠, no one will understand or sympathise. Partners double indicates the minors so we bid 3♦, "limiting our hand". And if we have a strong hand, we simply make a strong bid.

[gszes]

 mike777, on 2015-April-21, 02:10, said:

3d
no problem yet


slam is possible
---


3d not an option?

again I choose 3d as slam option.

come on guys....3d slam open.
----

I open
pard x
I bid new suit

this Is not weak./
--

with crap I do not open or rebid major
I limit my opener

The analysis is sort of correct but dia is NOT a new suit. Responder has already implied dia and a 3d bid is taking a mere preference with a sort of min hand and nothing better to do. 3d does not even guarantee dia support for ex you hold KJxxx xxx AKx Qx. What can you do besides bid 3d over the x?

[gszes]

4h splinter

Yes indeed it may be possible for 4h to be a self splinter for spades but that makes no difference because the spade suit needs to be no loser and opener can correct any minor to spades. It is a ton more flexible to assume there is a club fit (opener can correct to dia/spa if needed) and go from there. Opener also had a 3s (forcing) bid available if they had doubts about the spade suit.

[mikeh]

4♥ is insane. I'd like to be kind, but a splinter made before and without agreeing trump is truly insane.

Just how the heck is partner going to be able to work out wtf is going on? When and at what level are we planning on trying to find diamonds?

Say he bids 4♠ now. I think most would agree that this is suggesting we play in spades, but I don't think it matters.

We now bid 5♦. What is this?

Do we hold AKQxxxx x AJx Qx or are we showing diamonds? If so, how good are our diamonds?

It is a cardinal rule of cue-bidding or splintering that the partnership knows what suit is trump. Splintering is often a way to establish that, and is a very powerful tool precisely because it conveys a lot of information: information that partner will use to guide his or her decision-making. It is batshit crazy to splinter then try to set trump later.

Moreover, and this really is redundant. wtf is wrong with a simple cuebid then diamonds? What is it that makes that space-saving, information sharing strategy inferior to the master-mind call of splintering and then making partner work out that we hold 5 diamonds, with zero room to investigate whether our hands mesh for slam, grand slam, or game?

4♥ can be used as a splinter, but it has to set trump at the same time, and by necessary implication it shows long, very good, spades. That hand ain't this hand.

[Stephen Tu]

Why does 4♥ have to be spades? Can't it be used to say "I have heart splinter and big fit for one of your minors", with the long very good spades hands bidding 3♥ followed by 4♠ instead? Or maybe 3♠ if it's forcing (should it be assumed forcing without discussion?)

Quote

Moreover, and this really is redundant. wtf is wrong with a simple cuebid then diamonds? What is it that makes that space-saving, information sharing strategy inferior to the master-mind call of splintering and then making partner work out that we hold 5 diamonds, with zero room to investigate whether our hands mesh for slam, grand slam, or game?

To me, the main questions are:
Does 3♥ followed by 4♦ promise heart control? If it doesn't, what does one bid with say AKQxx xx AJxxx K or similar? If it does, over 4♦, how does responder proceed, if cue bidding 4♥ shows heart control, how do you ask for heart control instead?

Resolving these issues to me is a possible justification for using 4♥ as spl for one of the minors.

[mikeh]

 Stephen Tu, on 2015-April-21, 12:12, said:

Why does 4♥ have to be spades? Can't it be used to say "I have heart splinter and big fit for one of your minors", with the long very good spades hands bidding 3♥ followed by 4♠ instead? Or maybe 3♠ if it's forcing (should it be assumed forcing without discussion?)



To me, the main questions are:
Does 3♥ followed by 4♦ promise heart control? If it doesn't, what does one bid with say AKQxx xx AJxxx K or similar? If it does, over 4♦, how does responder proceed, if cue bidding 4♥ shows heart control, how do you ask for heart control instead?

Resolving these issues to me is a possible justification for using 4♥ as spl for one of the minors.

There are ways of handling the problem you identify, but to explicate them here would require long post. I can say that life is far easier on these auctions if, after we have 4-level minor suit agreement, we don't use keycard.....use 4N as a forward-going hand with no cue available. Along with LTCC, life works out pretty well.

More importantly, even if I were to concede that, in the absence of special agreements, the 3♥ then 4♦ sequence can lead to ambiguity, which I think is fair, that is not at all saying that the solution is to use 4♥ as some sort of 3-way splinter, trumps to be announced later!

Any problem with the heart suit pales in comparison to the problems that arise after a splinter...yes...on a good day all can work out well, but on a bad day one creates insoluble problems.