[mike777]

 Trinidad, on 2015-September-28, 20:25, said:

Well. given I have lived in the USA and in various countries in Europe, I think I can answer that.

In Europe, there is much less racism. There is a fairly large group of people with too much fear for foreigners ("our country is for us"), but race doesn't play a big role there. Without a doubt, people originating from Morocco suffer from discrimination in the Netherlands. But I don't think it is as bad as in the USA.

When I was in Michigan, a grad student in my wife's lab always was at work either at 8 AM sharp or simply late. Whenever he arrived late, several times a week(!), he had been pulled over by the local police: They would search his car, because a big black guy obviously wouldn't drive a car on campus to go to work, unless "work" was something drug related. (Undergrads were not allowed to park on campus.)

In Michigan, I had a few restaurants where I wouldn't go, because my colored friends would not be served there. While this might happen in the Netherlands, somewhere, in the USA I saw these kind of things regularly.

Rik

OK Rik

thank you for taking the time to respond with your thoughtful post Rik.

In summary you find the USA a much more racist country than your home in Holland.


Hope to hear other responses from outside the USA,

[Zelandakh]

 kenberg, on 2015-September-28, 16:22, said:

It must be recognized that this is Martian water. I know that some say that Martian water, if smuggled back into the US, should be given full rights after five years but that's just liberal ideology. There are real scientists, not just tv scientists, who have shown that Martian water causes epilepsy. I say boil it all into steam and be done with it. American water for Americans. Those atheists over in Europe can drink all they want of this devil water from Mars.

If you re-condense the steam back into water on American soil, should it not then be given citizenship rights?

[mike777]

 Zelandakh, on 2015-September-29, 03:22, said:

If you re-condense the steam back into water on American soil, should it not then be given citizenship rights?

again see what Europe is thinking most important and why we see Europe as a museum....

old very old and pretty

for Europe...re condense water top priority

[Trinidad]

 PassedOut, on 2015-September-28, 21:09, said:

There is plenty of racism still in the USA, and I witnessed blatant racism very close up during the 1960s. However, if this situation happened more recently, I'm surprised to learn of it. What years did you encounter restaurants that would not serve your colored friends?

In the 90's. And they didn't have a sign in the window "Blacks not allowed". When my friends came, they just said that they were full (when there was ample place in the restaurant then they were "short on staff") and when my (white) girl friend and I walked in 2 minutes later we got a table immediately... also when we added: "for 8 please". When we heard that they had refused our friends, we obviously didn't want to eat there anymore.

The first time that this happened (at the local Pizza Hut), it was mere coincidence and I was completely naive and innocent. At other occasions, my girl friend and I "set it up": we let the colored people get in first and then we would come in. The vast majority of restaurants past this little test easily, but a few (let's say "less than 5" ) simply failed. So Pizza Hut wasn't the only place.

My colored friends could eat at McDonalds, but we never went there either. They didn't want to serve "hamburgers without meat" (i.e. only bun, cheese, pickle, condiments) to accommodate vegetarian hindus. So, we always went to Burger King instead. (There, the Indians could simply order a "veggie Whopper meal". This was not on the official menu but it was a Whopper without the meat, but with some extra cheese and veggies and the fries replaced by more expensive (and more "Indian") onion rings for the same price as a Whopper meal.) I would not call that racial discrimination on the part of McDonalds, but "culturally insensitive" seems to be an appropriate label. Burger King saw the Indians as customers: They need to be served and cared for. I think, the staff at McDonalds never saw them as customers.

Rik

[Zelandakh]

 Trinidad, on 2015-September-29, 03:51, said:

So, we always went to Burger King instead. (There, the Indians could simply order a "veggie Whopper meal".

It is perhaps worth pointing out that BK was typically using animal fat at that time so anything described as a veggie meal is a complete contradiction.

[gwnn]

 Zelandakh, on 2015-September-29, 06:37, said:

It is perhaps worth pointing out that BK was typically using animal fat at that time so anything described as a veggie meal is a complete contradiction.

I only reply to this threadjack with another threadjack because I know Donald Trump will come back to this thread with or without it. Certainly it is not a "complete contradiction," is it? I am a vegetarian but there are several kinds of vegetarians and I'm not even talking about vegetarian vs vegan vs pescatarian/pollotarian. For example I'm trying to avoid gelatin (as far as I know successfully but I'm sure not completely) but I'm ok with regular cheese (using enzymes from slaughtered calves) and I am OK with food that touched meat (if we're sharing some food at a party. I will not accept it from a restaurant as they should know better). And there are tiny other decisions that I swing from one side to the other. It is not a "complete contradiction" to be a vegetarian and consume trace amounts of non veg stuff from time to time. And yea ok you may say that the stance sketched above is "completely inconsistent" with me being a vegetarian but first we need a discussion whether or not completely inconsistent or complete contradiction ate meaningful concepts (a rematch of the "very unique" debacle ).

[Trinidad]

 Zelandakh, on 2015-September-29, 06:37, said:

It is perhaps worth pointing out that BK was typically using animal fat at that time so anything described as a veggie meal is a complete contradiction.

I am not surprised. But, in addition to what gwnn wrote, I think it makes a big difference to many hindus in the USA whether they eat meat or whether they eat fries where only a chemist knows that they that are cooked in fat that contains animal fat. It is a bit like "Don't ask, don't tell.".

In India you will see that restaurants like Subway have two counters: one for veg and one for "non-veg". I think that over there "veg" really means "veg". When an Indian comes to the US, he will have to adapt. If he wants to have lunch with his colleagues (and, as far as I understand Hinduism, that is considered to be a good idea), he will have to eat at American sandwich restaurants. Is there anything that is truly vegetarian at these places? I imagine that some of the chips sold at Subway also contain some animal fat. If you go to a pizza place, they won't have a separate oven for vegetarian pizzas. The fat from the pepperoni or tuna from the previous pizza will be at the bottom of your "vegetarian" pizza.

During Summer, we would often go to a park and grill. Of course, we would prepare vegetarian dishes as well as "non-veg". We made it a point to clean the grill, grill the vegetarian stuff first and then grill the meat. Our Indian friends were truly grateful for that. Given that most of them were chemical engineers, they would be able to calculate how clean the grill was and, as a consequence, how much animal product would still be on the "vegetarian" food. They would also be able to apply the second law of Thermodynamics and know that no matter how long we would clean, there would always be some animal stuff on the vegetarian food (and that there probably were some beef molecules on it anyway since it had been prepared in our kitchen).

But they were not thinking in terms of milligrams or micromoles. They were thinking in the spirit of vegetarianism (my spell checker says that that is a word).

BK delivered to the wishes of these customers (who I am sure on a rational level were aware that they would be eating some animal molecules), McD did not.

Rik

[Winstonm]

 kenberg, on 2015-September-28, 16:22, said:

It must be recognized that this is Martian water. I know that some say that Martian water, if smuggled back into the US, should be given full rights after five years but that's just liberal ideology. There are real scientists, not just tv scientists, who have shown that Martian water causes epilepsy. I say boil it all into steam and be done with it. American water for Americans. Those atheists over in Europe can drink all they want of this devil water from Mars.

Limbaugh sees liberal plot in Mars’ water

[Winstonm]

 nige1, on 2015-September-27, 10:06, said:

Skin Cancer Rates by Race and Ethnicity

The essence of a generalization is the lack of or minimum of data used to obtain the prediction.

[Winstonm]

 cherdano, on 2015-September-28, 16:44, said:

Yet James Blake wouldn't have gotten tackled and treated they way he was treated if he had been white. And that kind of incident happens hundreds of times every day in the US.

I agree people are all individuals, and there are very few people where the word "racist" is helpful in describing their personality.

But when you are talking about the entire US society, then there are many phenomena that cannot be explained fully without talking about racism. Insisting that it is inappropriate to be brought up in discussion, equating it with "name-calling" etc., is just completely inappropriate. Yes, it's the easy and comfortable thing to do when you are part of the majority race. You don't want to have to wonder whether your proverbial "uncle" actually is a racist, or just says racists things now and then. But it is completely disrespectful to about 112 million Americans.

I hope this isn't read as a personal attack on Ken. Everybody reading the watercooler knows he is a much better human being than I. But here he is, in my view, very very wrong. And he is wrong about one of the most important questions affecting US society as a whole.

In my experience I first noticed the "nothing he does is right" attitude of the Republican Party when Bill Clinton was in office, but the office itself was still held in high esteem. With Obama, not only is his every action and word dismissed but his "presidency" is belittled by catcalls during speeches. I think race has a lot to do with it.

[billw55]

 Winstonm, on 2015-September-29, 08:33, said:

In my experience I first noticed the "nothing he does is right" attitude of the Republican Party when Bill Clinton was in office, but the office itself was still held in high esteem. With Obama, not only is his every action and word dismissed but his "presidency" is belittled by catcalls during speeches. I think race has a lot to do with it.

Partisanship and mutual disrespect had been on the rise for quite some time before Obama took office. I don't think that race or racism is really necessary to explain these things. Of course racism exists and obviously some politicians are included. But I do think a white democrat would have been treated more or less the same. And will be, if Clinton wins - but not, in my opinion, because she is a woman.

[y66]

So, most of the people in this conversation now seem to recognize that racism is still a big problem here in the U.S.; labeling people is problematic and often counterproductive; ditto for labeling certain foods, esp. in settings where cross-contamination can not be perfectly controlled; and the spirit of doing the right thing, which often starts with respecting the rights, wishes and basic humanity of others, is usually more important than doing precisely X, Y or Z.

I don't think any of the Republican presidential candidates would agree that racism is still a big problem or that there is still a tremendous need for a healthy dialog about racism like the one F.B.I. director, James B. Comey, encouraged when he talked about the difficult relationship between the police and African-Americans in February.

Comey's remarks were constructive and, IMO, a real sign of precisely the kind of leadership we need and seems to be completely lacking in these candidates.

We need to have healthy dialogs about a number of problems. I don't see these guys providing leadership on other problems either.

[Zelandakh]

 billw55, on 2015-September-29, 09:15, said:

Partisanship and mutual disrespect had been on the rise for quite some time before Obama took office. I don't think that race or racism is really necessary to explain these things. Of course racism exists and obviously some politicians are included. But I do think a white democrat would have been treated more or less the same. And will be, if Clinton wins - but not, in my opinion, because she is a woman.

I think Obama is also particularly hated for managing to get through some limited health reforms where Clinton had failed. If Hillary were to win I suspect she would also be particularly hated because of the special place her husband gained in Republican hearts after trouncing them twice. You are surely right that any Democratic president would come under heavy fire given the political climate but I doubt the other candidates would get quite such a reception as HC, and no, not because she is woman.

[Trinidad]

 Winstonm, on 2015-September-29, 08:19, said:

Limbaugh sees liberal plot in Mars’ water

Like many of Limbaugh's ideas: highly entertaining... and worrying at the same time.

Rik

[Zelandakh]

 Trinidad, on 2015-September-29, 10:20, said:

Like many of Limbaugh's ideas: highly entertaining... and worrying at the same time.

OMG, I just clicked on the link and it really does mention GW! That is more than worrying.

[kenberg]

 y66, on 2015-September-29, 09:32, said:

So, most of the people in this conversation now seem to recognize that racism is still a big problem here in the U.S.; labeling people is problematic and often counterproductive; ditto for labeling certain foods, esp. in settings where cross-contamination can not be perfectly controlled; and the spirit of doing the right thing, which often starts with respecting the rights, wishes and basic humanity of others, is usually more important than doing precisely X, Y or Z.

I don't think any of the Republican presidential candidates would agree that racism is still a big problem or that there is still a tremendous need for a healthy dialog about racism like the one F.B.I. director, James B. Comey, encouraged when he talked about the difficult relationship between the police and African-Americans in February.

Comey's remarks were constructive and, IMO, a real sign of precisely the kind of leadership we need and seems to be completely lacking in these candidates.

We need to have healthy dialogs about a number of problems. I don't see these guys providing leadership on other problems either.

I see those remarks as very constructive, I will single out two:

“It’s hard to hate up close,”

“It’s ridiculous that I can’t tell you how many people were shot by the police last week, last month, last year,”


A couple of other thoughts. A cop has a far greater direct personal reason for reducing violence on the streets than I will ever have. He wants to go home after work. So, if a reasonable program will make his job safer, I doubt that it would take a great deal of persuasion to get him to go along with it. I grew up across the street from a cop. I never got to know him well, but still. A cop is a human, a young man, a little, or a lot, uncertain about his future is a human, it would be good if they saw this in each other. Some people are not open to this. Some are.

[PassedOut]

 Trinidad, on 2015-September-29, 03:51, said:

In the 90's. And they didn't have a sign in the window "Blacks not allowed". When my friends came, they just said that they were full (when there was ample place in the restaurant then they were "short on staff") and when my (white) girl friend and I walked in 2 minutes later we got a table immediately... also when we added: "for 8 please". When we heard that they had refused our friends, we obviously didn't want to eat there anymore.

The first time that this happened (at the local Pizza Hut), it was mere coincidence and I was completely naive and innocent. At other occasions, my girl friend and I "set it up": we let the colored people get in first and then we would come in. The vast majority of restaurants past this little test easily, but a few (let's say "less than 5" ) simply failed. So Pizza Hut wasn't the only place.

Thanks for the information, disconcerting as it is to learn that still went on the 1990s. I would not expect to find that now because of legal repercussions, but that certainly doesn't mean that racist incidents have disappeared from stores even now. We need winter hats in Upper Michigan, and I always try on a couple before buying. But a non-white friend who teaches at the university here went to buy a winter hat and the elderly clerk said, "Don't put that on unless you're going to buy it."

[kenberg]

 Winstonm, on 2015-September-29, 08:19, said:

Limbaugh sees liberal plot in Mars' water

Well, there you have it. See?

As a friend of my often notes, it is not possible to parody American politics. I suppose Sarah Palin can see Mars from her backyard, so no doubt she will weigh in on this.

I thought I was joking. Really, I did!

There's a hell of a good universe next door, let's go.--- e.e. cummings

[Winstonm]

I am reading Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman. It is both remarkable and disheartening at the same time.

[Winstonm]

 kenberg, on 2015-September-29, 13:17, said:

Well, there you have it. See?

As a friend of my often notes, it is not possible to parody American politics. I suppose Sarah Palin can see Mars from her backyard, so no doubt she will weigh in on this.

I thought I was joking. Really, I did!

There's a hell of a good universe next door, let's go.--- e.e. cummings

Quote

“Maybe this world is another planet’s hell.”
― Aldous Huxley