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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#801 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2016-February-01, 13:31

View Posty66, on 2016-February-01, 11:01, said:

Surely the interesting takeaway from that exchange between Cruz and Wallace is that Wallace knows of the existence of fact checkers.

I think Cruz knows, he just doesn't care. Fact checking would matter for rational persuasion, but Cruz is going for emotional persuasion. Facts don't matter to the voters he is courting. He knows it and bases his strategy on it.




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#802 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2016-February-01, 13:46

View Postbillw55, on 2016-February-01, 13:31, said:

I think Cruz knows, he just doesn't care. Fact checking would matter for rational persuasion, but Cruz is going for emotional persuasion. Facts don't matter to the voters he is courting. He knows it and bases his strategy on it.

Agree with all that. But since when does Fox News care about facts? flem72's post gets at this. Cruz is not Murdoch's man.
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#803 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2016-February-01, 15:15

View Posty66, on 2016-February-01, 13:46, said:

Agree with all that. But since when does Fox News care about facts? flem72's post gets at this. Cruz is not Murdoch's man.

Perhaps not. But then who is?
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#804 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2016-February-01, 16:46

View PostPhil, on 2016-February-01, 12:42, said:

Interesting discussion on 538 about Sanders' appeal to white liberals and how NH and Iowa are 2 of the 3 best states for this parlay.

I think Cruz wins Iowa and Trump wins NH but Kasich makes a good enough showing to stay in. Early on, a 538 pundit differentiated between 'buying' and 'shopping' on the Republican ticket and how Trump will fade down the stretch. Where those votes go is anyone's guess but I'll predict Jeb as the 'devil we know' choice. He has a lot of backing and the ability to get endorsements.

And even Jeb could beat Bernie....
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#805 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2016-February-01, 16:57

How do you know?
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#806 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2016-February-01, 17:03

See above but counting all those not in Bernie's camp, the choice would be evident.
The Grand Design, reflected in the face of Chaos...it's a fluke!
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#807 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2016-February-01, 17:05

http://elections.huf...bush-vs-sanders

Has 49-42% for Bernie.
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#808 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2016-February-01, 17:28

Posted Image
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#809 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2016-February-01, 17:33

View Postbillw55, on 2016-February-01, 15:15, said:

Perhaps not. But then who is?

No idea. Probably Rubio.
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#810 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2016-February-01, 21:00

View Postmike777, on 2016-February-01, 02:50, said:

if in your country socialism is not a substantial issue...ok...

please tell us
at this point no one I mean on one has said that


O.K., then I am saying it now. Socialism is not an issue in this Presidential race, nor has it been in any race of the past 50 years.
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#811 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2016-February-02, 01:03

What? A tie?? Don't you people bave sudden death in everyt sport?
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#812 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2016-February-02, 04:12

From Michael Barbaro's take on Iowa in today's NYT: Fury Shakes the Iowa Caucuses, Boosting Ted Cruz While Slowing Hillary Clinton:

Quote

DES MOINES — Fury carried Ted Cruz to victory. And it stopped Hillary Clinton from truly claiming one.

The vote here in Iowa was a portrait of red-hot America, so disaffected that it turned to a pugilistic evangelical Republican who calls for demolition of a system saturated with corruption. And it sent a forceful message to Democratic leaders that it was unwilling to put aside its resentment of Wall Street and corporate America to crown a lifelong party insider who has amassed millions in speaking fees from the big banks.

Monday night’s results confirmed that despite the widening cultural and political fissures that have divided right and left, voters are united in an impatience, even a revulsion, at what they see as a rigged system that no longer works for them.

For Republicans, the enemy is an overreaching government, strangling their freedoms and pocketbooks. For Democrats, it is an unfair economy, shrinking their paychecks and aspirations.

“This is the most anxious electorate we’ve seen in a very long time,” said David Gergen, an adviser to four presidents of both parties.

Mr. Cruz’s triumph on Monday, combined with Senator Bernie Sanders’s effective tie with Mrs. Clinton, demonstrated how bipartisan the bitterness has become. “It’s striking,” Mr. Gergen said, “that the winner of the Republican side represents the far right and the moral winner for the Democrats comes from the far left. It’s a clear vote of no confidence in the economic order.”

In many ways, the focus of the 2016 campaign has turned to easing the palpable frustrations of a large portion of white working-class Americans who believe that the country no longer works for them.

Now, both parties are reacting, sometimes clumsily, to the indignation and insecurities of those voters, buffeted by financial stagnation, globalization, and technological and demographic change.

From the start, an uncomfortable question has hovered over this race: In a country where, increasingly, everybody is a statistical minority, who exactly speaks for the white working class?

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#813 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2016-February-02, 07:46

I pull out one sentence from the NYT article cited above:

Quote

Monday night's results confirmed that despite the widening cultural and political fissures that have divided right and left, voters are united in an impatience, even a revulsion, at what they see as a rigged system that no longer works for them.


Although not written in direct response, I pull out one sentence from a column by Michael Gerson

Quote

As economic analysis, this is generally wrong, shallow or partial. But it is the political consequences that concern me.


It is probably correct to say that in 2016 we will choose between adjusting our basic approach or replacing our basic approach by something substantially different.

I don't easily move toward revolutionary ideas. To use a personal analogy, I have been twice divorced but I have seen the resulting chaos and I am a strong advocate of stable marriage.

We must, at times, go for the extreme but my first instinct is to say no. As the race develops, we will see how broadly this instinct is shared by others.

Here are the details from the Gerson column:

Quote

There is one issue on which the whole ideological range of campaign 2016 seems to agree. "The American Dream is dead," says Donald Trump. "For many, the American Dream has become a nightmare," says Bernie Sanders.

Even discounting for the apocalyptic mood of many candidates — like "John the Revelator" with a toothache — this is a justified concern. A way of life in which increased productivity resulted in higher wages and a realistic shot at economic advancement is fragile or failing. For as many as 40 percent of Americans, work now means a series of part-time, temporary, on-call and contract jobs. The old benefit packages and promotion pathways are largely gone. Life has instability, worry and toxic stress at its core.


For those who criticize populist candidates, it is doubly important to understand and address the causes of populist discontent. One of those causes is pervasive, warranted economic anxiety.
The political divide emerges in how this challenge is explained — a division that does not lie between parties or even ideologies. Some believe the American Dream has been stolen. It may have been an inside job, done by Wall Street or wealthy political donors. Or it may have been the work of outsiders such as illegal immigrants, the Mexican government or Chinese competitors. But our economic problem is viewed as effectively a crime.

As economic analysis, this is generally wrong, shallow or partial. But it is the political consequences that concern me.

If the American Dream has been stolen, the main purpose of politics is not to propose policies that ameliorate this problem or that; it is to define, fight and defeat enemies who have stolen the dream. This approach to public life is inherently personal. Our economic problems have faces. They may be owned by sneering billionaires, or have a more Latino or Asian aspect. But they certainly don't look like us. They are the scheming, the exploiters, the guilty, the other.

This gives rise to a politics characterized by anger, retribution and enmity. It has the chemical advantage of lighting up the limbic system, the emotional center of the brain. If I remember Psych 101 correctly, this portion of the brain includes the hypothalamus, which regulates the "Four F's" — fighting, fleeing, feeding and . . . mating.

A hypothalamic politics is not oriented toward consensus. In any economic diagnosis that involves fighting the bad guys, progress is a zero-sum game. Some must lose for the virtuous many to win. And this requires not persuasion but revolution — a word that some presidential candidates use promiscuously.

There are many problems here, but the worst is misdiagnosis, because it undermines the possibility of productive change. The American Dream has not been stolen. It has been undermined by a vast economic transition that has placed U.S. workers in competition with talented workers around the world and replaced whole categories of labor with new technologies. This has resulted in a consistent downward pressure on wages and a ruthless demand for higher skills. For many communities, it has meant a more or less permanent recession.

The effective collapse of the blue-collar economy has come at the same time that working-class family structures have dramatically weakened and community institutions — which once provided assistant or substitute parents — have fallen apart. Some social scientists emphasize one part of this problem or another, but family, community and economic challenges seem related to one another in complex ways. It is an "all of the above" problem.

This is the real-world context for effective policy. People need the skills, support structure and human capital to succeed in a modern economy. This is definitely not an explanation that elicits a hormonal response. But it is the shared premise of serious policy thinkers on the center right and the center left, presenting the possibility of compromise and agreement. It is possible to shape an innovative role for government that empowers individuals, increases the rewards for work and respects the important place of family and community.

This might be the productive substance of a presidential race between Hillary Clinton and Marco Rubio (or Jeb Bush, or John Kasich). It would probably not be the outcome of Trump vs. Sanders. But the actual problems of our economy will not be solved by barbed wire on our southern border, or by putting Wall Street villains in shackles. It will require politicians who call Americans to the ramparts of an evolution — educating and equipping all our citizens, one by one, for a different and difficult economy. In that, there should be no enemies.



Ken
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#814 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2016-February-02, 09:30

View Postkenberg, on 2016-February-02, 07:46, said:

Quote

It is possible to shape an innovative role for government that empowers individuals, increases the rewards for work and respects the important place of family and community.

This might be the productive substance of a presidential race between Hillary Clinton and Marco Rubio (or Jeb Bush, or John Kasich). It would probably not be the outcome of Trump vs. Sanders. But the actual problems of our economy will not be solved by barbed wire on our southern border, or by putting Wall Street villains in shackles. It will require politicians who call Americans to the ramparts of an evolution — educating and equipping all our citizens, one by one, for a different and difficult economy. In that, there should be no enemies.

Maybe I should think a bit longer about this before posting, but my immediate reaction is that this is utter BS.

Clinton and Rubio both represent a class whose interests it is to let inequality continue to increase. They differ on substantial issues such as gun control and gay marriage, and the democrats are a bit more social than the republicans w.r.t. health care and benefits. But a Clinton-Rubio election will mostly be about the culture war and it will be understandable if voters, who are more concerned about their own and their childrens' financial security than about the culture war, won't bother to vote.

It may be right that trade restrictions and financial oversight will not completely reverse social inequality, but that is a lame reason for dismissing such policies.
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#815 User is offline   PassedOut 

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Posted 2016-February-02, 09:37

There is always a silver lining: Cruz Victory Gives Hope To Despised People Everywhere

Quote

Tracy Klugian, a real-estate agent from Jupiter, Florida, said that the fact that she has systematically alienated her co-workers, by bad-mouthing them to management and stealing their listings, no longer seems like an obstacle to advancement.

“Sometimes, knowing that everyone in the office hates me so much that they won’t even ride in an elevator with me kind of brought me down,” she said. “That’s why this Cruz thing is such a game-changer.”

Looks like a fun year ahead!
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#816 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2016-February-02, 10:13

View Posthelene_t, on 2016-February-02, 09:30, said:

Maybe I should think a bit longer about this before posting, but my immediate reaction is that this is utter BS.

Clinton and Rubio both represent a class whose interests it is to let inequality continue to increase. They differ on substantial issues such as gun control and gay marriage, and the democrats are a bit more social than the republicans w.r.t. health care and benefits. But a Clinton-Rubio election will mostly be about the culture war and it will be understandable if voters, who are more concerned about their own and their childrens' financial security than about the culture war, won't bother to vote.

It may be right that trade restrictions and financial oversight will not completely reverse social inequality, but that is a lame reason for dismissing such policies.


I see no reason why Rubio-Clinton woud be about culture war. I certainly am interested in the financial well-being of my children and grandchildren, and others' children and grandchildren, and I would definitely vote, I always have.
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#817 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-February-02, 10:21

View Postkenberg, on 2016-February-02, 07:46, said:

Life has instability, worry and toxic stress at its core.

This is simply American capitalism and has been for longer than I have been alive. The whole world knows America is based around a "hire and fire" economy. What's new? have Americans only just noticed? What is scary is that American bosses are increasingly coming over to Europe and trying to implement their culture over here - my company has one for example. Perhaps the quoted piece should be required reading for the boards of all major European companies, with additional reminders to come before any new CEO appointment! ;)
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#818 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2016-February-02, 10:39

View PostZelandakh, on 2016-February-02, 10:21, said:

This is simply American capitalism and has been for longer than I have been alive. The whole world knows America is based around a "hire and fire" economy. What's new? have Americans only just noticed? What is scary is that American bosses are increasingly coming over to Europe and trying to implement their culture over here - my company has one for example. Perhaps the quoted piece should be required reading for the boards of all major European companies, with additional reminders to come before any new CEO appointment! ;)


Yes and no. It may well be true that we have always had a "hire and fire" economy but as someone who has lived here for a long time I see today as very different from my youth. It is not the we just noticed, it is that things have changed.


No doubt some would say we had it wrong in 1950 and we have it wrong today. My view is different. Life went well for me when I was young, I would like to see young people today have the same opportunity. To some extent this requires that people look around and take advantage of opportunity that exists. But there are difficulties, no doubt about it. I hope we can do something to improve their chances.


Added: In fact, this might be the nub of it. What I get out of Sanders is along the lines of "It was wrong in 1920, it was wrong in 1950, it was wrong in 2000, it's just wrong. Time to make a very substantial change.". This does not match my views.Of course I am now old and reasonably comfortable financially, but when I was 20 and of quite limited finances I didn't see things his way then either. It's a different view of the world.
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#819 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2016-February-02, 14:38

Let me pull out a different quote from the Gerson column:

Quote

It will require politicians who call Americans to the ramparts of an evolution — educating and equipping all our citizens, one by one, for a different and difficult economy.



From where I sit, this is already impossible.

At least two thirds of my students will never be equipped for this different and difficult economy. Their severely underfunded K-12 education has left them too far behind, and their currently severely underfunded university education doesn't have enough resources to help them catch up. We may give many of them college degrees, but they will never actually be college educated. They may get a job requiring a college education, but they won't hold on to it. At best, the ones that work hard will be the assistant manager of the local Mcdonalds or the local Safeway.

With the advent of the computer and some reasonable facsimile of artificial intelligence, people need to be able to solve novel problems and validate their solutions. When faced with a problem they haven't been told how to do step-by-step, some of my students try, but most of them just give up. Some of the ones who give up can be coaxed to try. But of all the ones that try, most of them have no idea how to approach anything they haven't seen before. They can be coached along. But when there is one of me and eighty of them, the coaxing and coaching can't really happen for most of the students.
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#820 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2016-February-02, 15:02

View Postakwoo, on 2016-February-02, 14:38, said:

Let me pull out a different quote from the Gerson column:




From where I sit, this is already impossible.

At least two thirds of my students will never be equipped for this different and difficult economy. Their severely underfunded K-12 education has left them too far behind, and their currently severely underfunded university education doesn't have enough resources to help them catch up. We may give many of them college degrees, but they will never actually be college educated. They may get a job requiring a college education, but they won't hold on to it. At best, the ones that work hard will be the assistant manager of the local Mcdonalds or the local Safeway.

With the advent of the computer and some reasonable facsimile of artificial intelligence, people need to be able to solve novel problems and validate their solutions. When faced with a problem they haven't been told how to do step-by-step, some of my students try, but most of them just give up. Some of the ones who give up can be coaxed to try. But of all the ones that try, most of them have no idea how to approach anything they haven't seen before. They can be coached along. But when there is one of me and eighty of them, the coaxing and coaching can't really happen for most of the students.


I know I have told this story before. I was teaching pre-calculus over the summer. A student was failing, and she had failed before. I told her she needed to take pre-pre-calculus (we offer this for a fee, no credit) She explained no, she had already had that. I asked what grade she got. She had received a D. I asked her what her planned major was. Nuclear Engineering.

No doubt there is much that needs doing in education but there also has to be some common sense. Quite possibly this young woman could prepare for a career. Not in nuclear engineering. At least I hope not.

I was brought up understanding that I was to support myself. How was my business. I know it is harder now, we all agree on that. But harder becomes impossible when common sense is abandoned. We recently had our roof replaced. I have no idea if the roofers can solve a differential equation but I am guessing that they cannot.

The point is this: We both cannot and should not write off everyone who is not academically oriented by simply saying nothing can be done. Doing so is bad for them, bad for us, and just bad.
Ken
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