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Cheating Allegations

#601 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2015-October-08, 03:23

One possibility would be for all of the players to go and boo or shout "Shame" at the relevant moment. That might get some attention.

Have all of the Polish matches been videotaped? I would hope so and also hope that they will be made publically available and subsequently worked through carefully by various teams around the world.
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#602 User is offline   zasanya 

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Posted 2015-October-08, 03:40

I do not think any NBO or any player protested before the matches started. Not even a token protest.Does not seem right to make a noise now. And one has to admit that the polish team has played extremely good bridge.
Aniruddha
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#603 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2015-October-08, 03:57

View Postzasanya, on 2015-October-08, 02:31, said:

The WBF allowed Poland to play. The team has played well to reach final. No allegations against the players concerned. So why make an issue out of it now?

Because some think it is etched in stone that BZ cheated and most are biased not least because allegations against other pairs proved successful.
If you read some posts in this thread you could get the impression that most cheating pairs are still undetected in top level Bridge.

Of course there must be a good reason why some (myself included) can not compete at the top level.

Rainer Herrmann
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#604 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-October-08, 04:44

View Postrhm, on 2015-October-08, 03:57, said:

Because some think it is etched in stone that BZ cheated and most are biased not least because allegations against other pairs proved successful.
If you read some posts in this thread you could get the impression that most cheating pairs are still undetected in top level Bridge.


If they didn't cheat they should be preparing lawsuits against the WBF and PBO for ruining their reputation by not disclosing why their invitation was withdrawn. However, investigations are being carried out through BW, and these results will be made public.

So we will see.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#605 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2015-October-08, 05:30

View PostVampyr, on 2015-October-08, 04:44, said:

If they didn't cheat they should be preparing lawsuits against the WBF and PBO for ruining their reputation by not disclosing why their invitation was withdrawn.

While I agree that the pair should be suing, I strongly suspect the lawyers at WBF have ensured it cannot be sued. I recall reading/hearing that the WBF have a right to withdraw the invitation without reason (almost as if after one is invited to a party, RSVP's, turns up at the venue, and is told one is no longer welcome)

As for Polish Bridge Federation, all their formal communications indicate they disagree completely with the WBF stance. So, implicitly or explicitly, they have maintained that the accused pair is innocent.

If anything, the lawsuits may get aimed at Boye et al.
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#606 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2015-October-08, 05:41

View PostVampyr, on 2015-October-08, 04:44, said:

If they didn't cheat they should be preparing lawsuits against the WBF and PBO for ruining their reputation by not disclosing why their invitation was withdrawn. However, investigations are being carried out through BW, and these results will be made public.

So we will see.

If you go to court, many expect to get justice.
What they get instead is a sentence.

Rainer Herrmann
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#607 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2015-October-08, 06:16

View Postzasanya, on 2015-October-08, 03:40, said:

I do not think any NBO or any player protested before the matches started. Not even a token protest. Does not seem right to make a noise now. And one has to admit that the polish team has played extremely good bridge.

Yes they did, most players signed a petition against Klukowski Gawrys entering the team with no time to prepare against their system.

You are right that current players are free of oficial allegations for signalling like their former teammates. No more, no less.
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#608 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2015-October-08, 06:21

View Postzasanya, on 2015-October-08, 03:40, said:

I do not think any NBO or any player protested before the matches started. Not even a token protest.Does not seem right to make a noise now. And one has to admit that the polish team has played extremely good bridge.

I agree, the time to object was before the event started. To play along and then make noise when they win, is poor form.
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#609 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2015-October-08, 06:28

View Postbillw55, on 2015-October-08, 06:21, said:

I agree, the time to object was before the event started. To play along and then make noise when they win, is poor form.

What do you suggest? Should they just have sit out so that Poland would win the BB by default? See Fluffy's post.
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#610 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2015-October-08, 07:32

View Posthelene_t, on 2015-October-08, 06:28, said:

What do you suggest? Should they just have sit out so that Poland would win the BB by default? See Fluffy's post.

I didn't read that into Bill's post. What I read was, "Object, don't object, whatever -- before the event starts. Then get over it."
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#611 User is offline   zasanya 

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Posted 2015-October-08, 08:13

View PostFluffy, on 2015-October-08, 06:16, said:

Yes they did, most players signed a petition against Klukowski Gawrys entering the team with no time to prepare against their system.

You are right that current players are free of oficial allegations for signalling like their former teammates. No more, no less.

I understand from reliable sources that Klukowsky Gawrys are not playing 'their' system. They had to play with a system which was already submitted by some other pair.This makes their performance even more praiseworthy. I may be wrong but I believe Zmud and Ballicki were considered the best polish pair. So this team has shown that even without their supposedly best pair they can still perform.
Aniruddha
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#612 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2015-October-08, 09:05

View Posthelene_t, on 2015-October-08, 06:28, said:

What do you suggest? Should they just have sit out so that Poland would win the BB by default? See Fluffy's post.


View Postaguahombre, on 2015-October-08, 07:32, said:

I didn't read that into Bill's post. What I read was, "Object, don't object, whatever -- before the event starts. Then get over it."

Basically what agua said. If you have an objection, you should make it up front, even if it is not actionable. That way you have full credibility if you later choose to boycott awards, or whatever.

I originally crossposted with Fluffy. So I see now that some did object in advance.

Also I accidentally repped you both while trying to click multiquote. heheh.


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#613 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2015-October-08, 11:47

View Postzasanya, on 2015-October-08, 08:13, said:

I may be wrong but I believe Zmud and Ballicki were considered the best polish pair.

That is not my understanding. I thought Gawrys and Klukowski were considered to be better than BZ (but that BZ were on the sponsored team that qualified).

Look, I congratulate the current Polish team for reaching the Bermuda Bowl final under awful circumstances. That is quite a feat.

I also think that the WBF made a big mistake, withdrawing the invitation for BZ.
  • Either they should have let the Poles play as they were. Should it turn out that BZ were cheating in Opatija, then you solve that problem at that point in time. (And if there is not sufficient evidence, there wouldn't be a problem.)
  • Or they should have "uninvited" the entire team. If BZ were cheating in Opatija, then the Polish qualification for the BB should be void.


We are in this mess now. Let's realize that the Polish players are in between a rock and a hard place. For the moment, they qualified legitimately for the BB (no one has been disqualified). Their sponsor wants them to play. The people in Poland are convinced that BZ are innocent. At this moment, and during the whole tournament in Chennai, the Poles have only had losing options. They cannot possibly do it right.

As an aside and for the record: Do I believe that BZ are guilty? Yes, I do. (They are either guilty or incredibly stupid.)

But let's not make the current Polish players in Chennai guilty by association. I could easily imagine that they will hand over their medals when it is officially clear that BZ have cheated.

Rik
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#614 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-October-08, 12:08

View Postaguahombre, on 2015-October-08, 07:32, said:

I didn't read that into Bill's post. What I read was, "Object, don't object, whatever -- before the event starts. Then get over it."

What evidence do you have that the players and NBOs did not object before the event started?
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#615 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-October-08, 13:38

LOL @ acting like people are protesting now because they are in the final.

Enormous pressure was put on the WBF, the Polish NBO, and the Polish players to not play, and to not be allowed to add a third pair. There were formal petitions and there was a lot of back channeling. People were outraged that they chose to play, outraged that the WBF allowed them to play, and outraged that they were allowed to add a third pair. Get real if you think this is just all of the sudden sour grapes.
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#616 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-October-08, 13:40

View PostTrinidad, on 2015-October-08, 11:47, said:

That is not my understanding. I thought Gawrys and Klukowski were considered to be better than BZ (but that BZ were on the sponsored team that qualified).



Umm, no? Where do you guys come up with some of this stuff.
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#617 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2015-October-08, 13:47

View PostPhantomSac, on 2015-October-08, 13:38, said:

Enormous pressure was put on the WBF, the Polish NBO, and the Polish players to not play, and to not be allowed to add a third pair. There were formal petitions and there was a lot of back channeling. People were outraged that they chose to play, outraged that the WBF allowed them to play, and outraged that they were allowed to add a third pair.

I am glad to hear that. Sounds like they are doing things the right way. Yes, perhaps an awards protest is in order now.
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#618 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-October-08, 16:05

View Postshyams, on 2015-October-08, 05:30, said:

While I agree that the pair should be suing,


LOL this is jumping the gun. There is a fair chance they are guilty!
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#619 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-October-08, 16:18

View PostTrinidad, on 2015-October-08, 11:47, said:

But let's not make the current Polish players in Chennai guilty by association. I could easily imagine that they will hand over their medals when it is officially clear that BZ have cheated.


Well. Compare them to the players who dropped out.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#620 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2015-October-08, 16:23

View Postbillw55, on 2015-October-08, 13:47, said:

Yes, perhaps an awards protest is in order now.


It's going to be ever so much fun watching the contortions surrounding any kind of awards protest.

What with the changes in the regulations after the whole Shanghai brouhaha and the changing of the opinions now that "real" Americans will protesting against foreigners rather than the Bush administration, I can't wait to see what comes next.

(In all seriousness, I am rooting for Poland just because it promises maximum carnage)
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