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Cheating Allegations

#621 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2015-October-08, 16:34

View PostTrinidad, on 2015-October-08, 11:47, said:

But let's not make the current Polish players in Chennai guilty by association. I could easily imagine that they will hand over their medals when it is officially clear that BZ have cheated.


You must not have read Jassem's "article" about the B-Z allegations.

I have a lot of sympathy for bridge players defending their team mates in the face of not yet substantiated allegations or rumours - as long as it's clear they are approaching the matter in good faith, and their desire is for the truth to come out. In my mind it's 100% clear that Welland and Auken were acting in good faith when they defended P-S before the confession. And it's 100% clear that it's not what Jassem did. (I could forgive him for having a sudden complete loss of hand evaluation skills and completely failing to be objective in evaluating these 6 hands. But to conclude by stating "...this report should end the B-Z case" is so utterly ridiculous for someone of his intellect that I can't believe it's just unconscious bias affecting his judgement.)

I am hoping to be proven wrong...
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#622 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2015-October-08, 18:02

View Posthrothgar, on 2015-October-08, 16:23, said:

It's going to be ever so much fun watching the contortions surrounding any kind of awards protest.

What with the changes in the regulations after the whole Shanghai brouhaha and the changing of the opinions now that "real" Americans will protesting against foreigners rather than the Bush administration, I can't wait to see what comes next.

(In all seriousness, I am rooting for Poland just because it promises maximum carnage)


The desire for 'I told you so' and 'I was always right' is strong with this one.

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the 3.


View Postrbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#623 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2015-October-08, 23:17

View Postcherdano, on 2015-October-08, 16:34, said:

You must not have read Jassem's "article" about the B-Z allegations.

I have a lot of sympathy for bridge players defending their team mates in the face of not yet substantiated allegations or rumours - as long as it's clear they are approaching the matter in good faith, and their desire is for the truth to come out. In my mind it's 100% clear that Welland and Auken were acting in good faith when they defended P-S before the confession. And it's 100% clear that it's not what Jassem did. (I could forgive him for having a sudden complete loss of hand evaluation skills and completely failing to be objective in evaluating these 6 hands. But to conclude by stating "...this report should end the B-Z case" is so utterly ridiculous for someone of his intellect that I can't believe it's just unconscious bias affecting his judgement.)

I am hoping to be proven wrong...


I have not. I have not read the article or the responses and debate.


If someone would care to summarize both sides, great.

---

to be honest there has been so much gossip, mean comments, etc I am not sure where all of these cheating allegations, results of the allegations, stand.

I bet most if not all of the ACBL members do not.

If anyone would care to summarize, great.

Per this bbo forum it seems many posters are at the point of protest of the new world champs, and most of us( acbl members) do not know why such an extreme position.
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#624 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2015-October-09, 03:38

View Postmike777, on 2015-October-08, 23:17, said:

to be honest there has been so much gossip, mean comments, etc I am not sure where all of these cheating allegations, results of the allegations, stand.

I bet most if not all of the ACBL members do not.

If anyone would care to summarize, great.

Per this bbo forum it seems many posters are at the point of protest of the new world champs, and most of us( acbl members) do not know why such an extreme position.


The following video provides a good introduction to the topic and shows a bunch of the most damning hands
https://www.youtube....h?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#625 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2015-October-09, 03:45

View Postcherdano, on 2015-October-08, 16:34, said:

You must not have read Jassem's "article" about the B-Z allegations.

I have a lot of sympathy for bridge players defending their team mates in the face of not yet substantiated allegations or rumours - as long as it's clear they are approaching the matter in good faith, and their desire is for the truth to come out. In my mind it's 100% clear that Welland and Auken were acting in good faith when they defended P-S before the confession. And it's 100% clear that it's not what Jassem did. (I could forgive him for having a sudden complete loss of hand evaluation skills and completely failing to be objective in evaluating these 6 hands. But to conclude by stating "...this report should end the B-Z case" is so utterly ridiculous for someone of his intellect that I can't believe it's just unconscious bias affecting his judgement.)

I am hoping to be proven wrong...

You are wrong and you will not be proven right even should it turn out that BZ did cheat.
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#626 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2015-October-09, 05:03

LOL
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#627 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2015-October-09, 06:00

View Posthrothgar, on 2015-October-09, 03:38, said:

The following video provides a good introduction to the topic and shows a bunch of the most damning hands
https://www.youtube....h?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ


No. Please don't drag BBF down to that level.

In regards to the B-Z hands, the evidence posted on BW seems to be pretty flimsy in comparison to that for F-N and F-S. Has anyone definitively broken the B-Z code and tested it against several sets of boards as for the other cases?

ahydra
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#628 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2015-October-09, 07:20

View Postahydra, on 2015-October-09, 06:00, said:

Has anyone definitively broken the B-Z code and tested it against several sets of boards as for the other cases?

ahydra

I would also like to see an explanation and examples of the alleged code.

We are in a curious situation: should the case/evidence be public or not? Boye started going public because the official channels were failing. But now we have WBF suspending BZ without much public information that I have seen. I wonder what is going on.

Anyway, I know for sure that if I was accused of such a thing (and was innocent), I would want everything to be absolutely as public as possible. Compare Mike Passel's response to his situation. That is what an innocent man sounds like.


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#629 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2015-October-09, 07:21

View Postshyams, on 2015-October-08, 05:30, said:

While I agree that the pair should be suing,

View PostVampyr, on 2015-October-08, 16:05, said:

LOL this is jumping the gun. There is a fair chance they are guilty!


Since when has that stopped anyone from suing? Posted Image



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#630 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2015-October-09, 07:55

View Postcherdano, on 2015-October-08, 16:34, said:

You must not have read Jassem's "article" about the B-Z allegations.

I have a lot of sympathy for bridge players defending their team mates in the face of not yet substantiated allegations or rumours - as long as it's clear they are approaching the matter in good faith, and their desire is for the truth to come out. In my mind it's 100% clear that Welland and Auken were acting in good faith when they defended P-S before the confession. And it's 100% clear that it's not what Jassem did. (I could forgive him for having a sudden complete loss of hand evaluation skills and completely failing to be objective in evaluating these 6 hands. But to conclude by stating "...this report should end the B-Z case" is so utterly ridiculous for someone of his intellect that I can't believe it's just unconscious bias affecting his judgement.)

I am hoping to be proven wrong...

Jassem wrote that pamphlet to polish audience so they kept suporting, he didn't intend his audience to suddenly become all of the western world.
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#631 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2015-October-09, 07:56

View Posthrothgar, on 2015-October-08, 16:23, said:

(In all seriousness, I am rooting for Poland just because it promises maximum carnage)

In all seriousness, I don't get such an attitude. I was hoping Poland would score exactly 0 VP in each of the RR matches. Not because I intrinsically have something against Poles, not at all. But I would prefer a situation without problems over a situation with problems. If Poland wouldn't score a single VP, they would not be in the knockouts, the effect of Poland playing on the standings for the other teams in the RR would have been minimal, and -should BZ be innocent- Poland could hardly claim that they wold have gotten anywhere with BZ.

But some people just love a lot of problems so that they can see how others are failing to solve them.

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#632 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2015-October-09, 09:16

Well, if it is a problem of their own making, I can see why someone might hope that the problem creates maximum fall out, to encourage a different approach in future like circumstances.

Or I suppose Hrothgar may have shares in the popcorn industry :)
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#633 User is offline   kuhchung 

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Posted 2015-October-09, 11:35

I also hate conflict, but one possible non-sadistic interpretation is that the handling of this was so bad, that if Poland just lost outright, there would be no outcry to fix how the WBF actually handled it.
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#634 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-October-09, 12:27

View Postkuhchung, on 2015-October-09, 11:35, said:

I also hate conflict, but one possible non-sadistic interpretation is that the handling of this was so bad, that if Poland just lost outright, there would be no outcry to fix how the WBF actually handled it.


Perhaps a graceful compromise would have been for Poland to perform as well as they could in the RR phase, and then give up their place in the knockouts. This would not be as good as their not playing at all, but a lot better than winning a medal and facing huge pressure to give it up. Of course we don't know why the WBF uninvited BZ...
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#635 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2015-October-09, 14:12

View PostTrinidad, on 2015-October-09, 07:56, said:


But some people just love a lot of problems so that they can see how others are failing to solve them.



I think that the existing system needs some major changes. I think that a shock to the system will do some good.

I will also point out that I claimed that precisely this same set of issues existed well over a decade ago.
More over, I also pointed a way out of the whole mess.

I am happy that more people have come to accept the necessity for change.
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#636 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-October-09, 14:20

The WBF statement was just AMAZING. LOLOLOLOLOOLOLOL.

Trying to come to terms with watching these *****ers cheat on video and looking at the ***** championships theyve won and thinking about matches you've played or national events you've been second to them in, all that, ok, hard enough.

BUT THEN THE WBF COMES OUT WITH A PURPOSELY ANTAGONIZING IDIOTIC ***** STATEMENT.

Time to riot.
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#637 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2015-October-09, 14:29

View PostPhantomSac, on 2015-October-09, 14:20, said:

The WBF statement was just AMAZING. LOLOLOLOLOOLOLOL.

BUT THEN THE WBF COMES OUT WITH A PURPOSELY ANTAGONIZING IDIOTIC ***** STATEMENT.

Time to riot.


I read it as an outright threat, and delivered by their lawyer no less. Them's fightin words and I'm in the mood for one.
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#638 User is offline   jallerton 

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Posted 2015-October-09, 15:46

Several pages from the WBF on the subject of cheating are in the final day's bulletin.
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#639 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2015-October-09, 16:34

View Postjallerton, on 2015-October-09, 15:46, said:

Several pages from the WBF on the subject of cheating are in the final day's bulletin.


I have long opposed efforts by various members of the ACBL Board to cut off funds from the WBF.

Even at the start of the latest cheating scandal, I felt that this was misguided at best.

The latest pronouncements from the WBF are the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. This has to be the most tone deaf, self absorbed piece of masturbatory clap trap that I have ever had the displeasure to read.

From the tone deaf IOC reference to the veiled threats to its own player base, this articles shows an organization that has completely lost its way.

At a time like this, the only way forward for an organization like the WBF is a sincere apology, followed by a realistic plan to improve on the current situation. If there is one thing the latest crowdsorcing effort has shown, it is that the creation of yet another committee that will operate in silence is unacceptable.
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#640 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2015-October-09, 18:24

The WBF is our best hope for the future of Bridge. The WBF is right to deplore the witch-hunt approach to cheating. For the good of the game, however, the WBF should reform itself quickly.

Law-makers should be less resistant to radical rule-simplification. Some rules seem unnecessary. Others seem to encourage their own infraction. Most are hard for players and directors to understand. This makes it easier for players to rationalize cheating. Rule-makers should make the laws simpler, clearer, less subjective, and more deterrent. For example, a streamlined version of the old appeal-system should replace the new review-protocol. IMO, Bridge would keep its basic nature but would be more fun. Players skilled in bidding and play would be less at the mercy of secretary-birds and cheats.

An NBO shouldn't investigate its own alleged cheats. When its own administrators and local heroes are suspects, it is naive to expect justice to be seen to be done by an NBO. The WBF should take the leading role in defining and coordinating global protocols for the investigation and prosecution of alleged cheats in a fair and timely way.

The WBF should try out suggestions, made here and elsewhere, to make cheating harder, at all levels.
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