[lycier]

Here is screenshot from the book " Two-over-one game force " by Audrey Grant and Eric Rodwell.

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Audrey said " Rebid 3♥. This hand is worth 15 high-card points plus length points for the six-card suit.That's enough to make a jump rebid over the 1NT response.The jump isn't forcing,just highly invitational.
However I have some different opinion on this hand.I disagree with jump rebid-3♥ because this hand only is one exception in 15hcp with 6322 shape.

How many points does opener make a jump rebid over the 1NT response?

Generally speaking, as a general rule:
1- If rebid depends on High Card Point, rebid-3♥ shows 15-18HCP.
2- If rebid depends on value point,Audrey approach is " rebid-3♥ shows 17-18 values points."
For this hand,Audrey Grant use a widely popular approach - only adds length point,ignores short-suit point. It seems that Audrey doesn't care the values of dubious honour doubleton.

For example ,South holds


♠ Q4
♥ AKJ984
♦ A85
♣ J7
Or
♠ QJ
♥ AKJ984
♦ A85
♣ 73


I believe that Audrey's hand is best in all the 6322 shape hand with 15HCP,however both hands above are samely 17 values points, do you rebid jump 3♥ over the 1NT response in this point? Would you like jump 3♥?
If Audrey approach is correct, partner might regard opener's hand as
♠ K4
♥ AKJ984
♦ AQJ
♣ 73
So Audrey approach is too aggressive.
My opinion is especially when hold 6322 shape only with 15hcp,rebid own opening suit at two level which should be regarded as 12-15 hcp mini hand. This is one exception of opener's rebid over the 1NT response if don't use special gadgets.
Sometimes value point is not necessarily better than HCP.Of course,evaluation is one of the core technology of the bridge.
How to show this hand correctly if use special convention?
The solution to this hand style is Anti-Bart convention.
Opener rebid 2♣ over 1nt response, partner bid 2♦ (promise doubleton H support with 8-10hcp or 9+hcp with other shapes) as a puppet to 2♥,then
1)- opener bid 2nt showing 6322 shape and weak 6-card trumph suit with 15-17hcp.
2)- opener bid 3♥ showing decent 6-card trumph suit with 15-17hcp.
Now you see that directly jump 3♥ of Audrey approach is very dangerous action if responder take 3♥ as 18hcp to bid to game only with 7- bad 8hcp.
This forcing 1nt respond makes not necessarily shows 2-3 cards ♥ fit,so only with 15hcp of 6322 shape,it is prudently to add length point.Remember this is one exception with 15hcp 6322 hand.
As you know that when the hand is a misfit, count HCP only,the value of this hand should be reduced to 15.
Any suggested reply would be appreciated.

Best Regards

Lycier

[fromageGB]

It seems very risky to me, with a good 6 card suit and only 15 hcp. However, I think all rebids are risky when you are not playing an artificial strength showing conventional rebid, so it may be OK in context. However, I would assume 17+.

Bart as I understand it does not show strength, so while it may help on 6 card suits it does not solve the wide range rebid problem. Playing something like 2♣ gazzilli to show strong hands means that you can give a better definition to a 3♥ rebid. Typically this could then be GF with self sufficient heart suit, just not quite good enough to open 2♣.

[Lovera]

Hi lycier. I don't know the book citated but seems similar for bidding to Stayman that tells: this bidding (1-3 with jump) means a good suit with 6 cards (raising with xx or H), is inviting (one trick below game) and show 19-20 points :(43) ♠ AK2 ♥ AKJ1082 ♦ Q5 ♣ 74 1♥ p 1 NT p, 3♥ (44) ♠ KQJ952 ♥ A ♦ AQ5 ♣ 1096. When is in a minor suit is generically base upon a solid suit of six cards , with about an A and a K aside forcing responder to find 3NT If plastic valutation reveals that nine tricks are possibile. So: (45) K103 ♥ 75 ♦ AKQ854 ♣ A8 1♦ p 1♠ p, 3♦ (pagg. 73-74 ..Stayman systeme ..).(Lovera)

[Stephen Tu]

 lycier, on 2016-January-01, 08:39, said:

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How many points does opener make a jump rebid over the 1NT response?

Generally speaking, as a general rule:
1- If rebid depends on High Card Point, rebid-3♥ shows 15-18HCP.
2- If rebid depends on value point,Audrey approach is " rebid-3♥ shows 17-18 values points."
For this hand,Audrey Grant use a widely popular approach - only adds length point,ignores short-suit point. It seems that Audrey doesn't care the values of dubious honour doubleton.

My old bidding books mostly say "16-18" "points", meaning including points for distribution, not just HCP. So roughly 15-17 HCP it seems. It's pretty fuzzy and there is often difference of opinion at the borders. Personally I'd jump with "good 15s". Some might consider that too aggressive.

Whether to jump or not is somewhat of a balancing act. On one hand, if you jump a bit too lightly, you can go down in 3♥ when partner is weak/misfit or 4♥ if partner accepts the invite on the low end. On the other hand, if you don't jump, is partner going to move over 2♥ with something like Axx xx Kx xxxxxx,, QJx Qx Kxx xxxxx? You might miss game by not jumping, partner doesn't want to move over 2♥ because you can have one fewer ace. So it's a question of how often you miss game by not jumping vs. getting overbid by jumping, and is somewhat of a judgment issue. Also one needs to be on the same page as partner so he knows how strong needed to raise 3 to 4.

Quote

For example ,South holds


♠ Q4
♥ AKJ984
♦ A85
♣ J7
Or
♠ QJ
♥ AKJ984
♦ A85
♣ 73

I think these hands are substantially worse than your first hand; doubleton QJ and doubleton Qx/Jx should be devalued a lot more than doubleton K in my view. I would bid 2♥ with these and probably 3♥ with the first.

Quote

If Audrey approach is correct, partner might regard opener's hand as
♠ K4
♥ AKJ984
♦ AQJ
♣ 73

If you are jumping with 15 then with 18 hcp you might choose jump-shift instead and force to game. Or not; this hand is borderline. 3♥ is going to be a range in any event, in standard systems not playing strong club there is too much ground to cover in all the cases. So with some hands when partner raises it's going to be just icy cold, while on the low end of your range it's going to be like on a finesse.

Quote

How to show this hand correctly if use special convention?
The solution to this hand style is Anti-Bart convention.

I think you misunderstand the Anti-Bart and Bart conventions. These are tools for *responder* to further narrow his hand type and ranges at the expense of a natural 2♦ bid. They are not a tool for *opener* to show extra strength by bidding an artificial 2♣. If you bid 2♣ on this kind of thing habitually as opener, just playing Bart/anti-Bart, basically you will too often find yourself playing 2♣/3♣ contract when responder has like 5♣/2♥, 5♣/1♥ when hearts scores better.

If you want to find a system for opener using a more explicitly artificial/forcing 2♣ to show different strength ranges, you want to look into the "Gazzilli" convention. Not Bart!

Quote

Opener rebid 2♣ over 1nt response, partner bid 2♦ (promise doubleton H support with 8-10hcp or 9+hcp with other shapes) as a puppet to 2♥,then
1)- opener bid 2nt showing 6322 shape and weak 6-card trumph suit with 15-17hcp.
2)- opener bid 3♥ showing decent 6-card trumph suit with 15-17hcp.

This is not how Anti-Bart is normally played. 2♦ shows a *weak* heart preference (5-7 hcp, doubleton heart, or 4-6, 3H) or strong hands. You put the *weak* heart preferences in 2♦, because you want to encourage opener to rebid 2♥ (where he wants to play opposite weak preferences) as often as possible to give room for responder to complete the description.

1h-1nt-2c-2d-2nt shows more like 17-18 hcp with bad 6 cd hearts. 3♥ over 2♦ shows a strong 6-4 hand, near GF.

As I said, if you want artificial F 2♣ by opener, play Gazzilli not Bart variation. Bart variations are based on NF 2♣.

[lycier]

A pity that if play Gazzilli for this hand,it goes :
1♥ - 1NT
3♥=15-18hcp 6-card ♥.

1♥ - 1NT
2♣* - 2♦"
3♥=22+hcp,6-card ♥ suit.

You have no way to show precisely.

[Stephen Tu]

 lycier, on 2016-January-01, 17:46, said:

A pity that if play Gazzilli for this hand,it goes :
1♥ - 1NT
3♥=15-18hcp 6-card ♥.

1♥ - 1NT
2♣* - 2♦"
3♥=22+hcp,6-card ♥ suit.

You have no way to show precisely.

There's a lot of versions of Gazzilli out there, but I'm pretty sure none of them are catering to 22+hcp and 6 cd heart suit! If you had 22+ you are opening 2♣ to begin with for sure. Your second definition is complete nonsense.

The way most versions of Gazzilli I've seen structure it, 1♥-1n-3♥ is about 15-bad 17 or so HCP, so easily includes your first hand.
good 17+ hands mostly go through 2♣.

After 1♥-1nt-2♣-2♦, 2♦ promises some minimum strength of 8+, so
1♥-1nt-2♣-2♦-3♥ just shows ~17-21 6 cd suit, GF. You don't need 22+ HCP to GF when partner promised 8! If you had 22+ you would have opened 2♣.

If 1♥-1nt-2♣-2♥, showing a weak (sometimes false) preference, then 17s and bad 18s are going to pass this, and stronger will raise invitational.

[blackshoe]

I agree with Audrey on the hand from the book. Of the two examples in the OP, the first is not a jump rebid imo, the second is borderline.

[rhm]

The whole thread discusses the wrong issues.
It does not matter that much whether a jump rebid of opener#s major should be a point stronger or not.
Point count is not a good yardstick for reaching good suit games and staying out of poor ones.
If you rebid 2♥ on

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you will of course miss a lot of good games and if you bid 3♥ you will be in some poor ones.

What is remarkable is that in standard it has been known for a long time that responders rebid of 2♠ after the bidding starts

1♥-1NT makes little sense in a natural sense.

The same holds true when opener rebids 2♠ after the same start.
The description is usually reversing values with 4 cards in spades. What responder is supposed to do with this information over this rebid remains mysterious.
Suitable hands for a 2♠ rebid by opener are rare compared to 2NT and 3♥, even though it is the cheapest strong bid opener can make over 1NT.
For example just exchanging the meaning of 3♥ and 2♠ after the bidding started 1♥-1NT could be very beneficial at little cost.
(The major cost might be that opponents can double an artificial 2♠ rebid by opener)

The major problem I have with the actual South hand is that it got a strong major suit and 6322 distribution. Since South has already shown 5 cards in the major rebidding the major stresses suit play too much while notrump may well be better. Respoinder has no clue whether opener is distributional or not.

Give North a suitable minimum, e.g.

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and any heart rebid is unlikely to land you in 3NT.
Having no special agreements I would rebid 2NT (a slight overbid) with the actual South hand.

Rainer Herrmann

[mgoetze]

 Stephen Tu, on 2016-January-01, 20:38, said:

The way most versions of Gazzilli I've seen structure it, 1♥-1n-3♥ is about 15-bad 17 or so HCP, so easily includes your first hand.
good 17+ hands mostly go through 2♣.

IMHO you're off by a point - it's practical to risk a GF with a good 16 opposite 8 (so that you don't miss out with a good 16 opposite a good 9), and thus 1♥-1NT-3♥ shows about 14 to a bad 16, much as it would if you were playing precision.

[fromageGB]

 lycier, on 2016-January-01, 17:46, said:

A pity that if play Gazzilli for this hand,it goes :
1♥ - 1NT
3♥=15-18hcp 6-card ♥.

1♥ - 1NT
2♣* - 2♦"
3♥=22+hcp,6-card ♥ suit.

You have no way to show precisely.

I think the normal approach would be a gazzilli that is usually 17+ OR a club suit :
1♥ 1NT, 2♥ = 6 card 11-14
1♥ 1NT, 3♥ = 6 card 15-16
1♥ 1NT, 2♣ 2♦(positive, 8+), 2♥ = clubs, 5+ hearts, 11-16
1♥ 1NT, 2♣ 2♦, 3♥ = 6 hearts, 17-21 or so
1♥ 1NT, 2♣ 2♦, 3♣ = clubs, 5+ hearts, 17-21 or so

If you like to open 1♥ (or 1♠) on a hand that is balanced and in the point count range of your 1NT, so a 1NT open denies a 5 card major, then you need to have a method of expressing that hand after a forcing NT. You can't get any more bids out of the air, only a limited few are granted to us, so you can lower the 2♣ strength to 15+, and forget about a weaker opener rebidding clubs (as this suit is almost lost anyway, as you can't play in 2♣). You then have :
1♥ 1NT, 2♥ = 6 card 11-14
1♥ 1NT, 2♣ 2♦, 2♥ = 6 card 15-16
1♥ 1NT, 2♣ 2♦, 3♥ = 6 card 17-21 or so
1♥ 1NT, 2♣ 2♦, 3♣ = clubs, 5+ hearts, 17-21 or so
1♥ 1NT, 3♥ = 6+ hearts, 20+, self-sufficient hearts happy to play there opposite a singleton, GF in hearts asking for cue. Or something like that.

Showing a 6 heart hand in 4 different ranges seems precise enough : 11-14, 15/16, 17-21, 20+self sufficient.

[mgoetze]

 fromageGB, on 2016-January-02, 06:19, said:

1♥ 1NT, 2♣ 2♦, 2♥ = 6 card 15-16

Well, that's certainly a novel idea...

[Lovera]

Gazzilli :see also (in Italian language) http://bridgeditalia...i-introduzione/

[fromageGB]

 mgoetze, on 2016-January-02, 06:48, said:

Well, that's certainly a novel idea...

Don't forget this is in the context of a 15/16 included in a 1M open, so after 2♣ 2♦, a 2-level rebid is not GF.