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Sorry I'd set this up as a poll but I'm mobile.
1M is 5+ (but never 5332).
Here's your challenge: "Assuming 8 baggers are thrown out, my partner and I can discover all hand patterns at a maximum call of ____"
Page 1 of 1
After 1M -2C
#1
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Posted 2016-June-04, 10:18
Hi y'all!
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#2
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Posted 2016-June-04, 10:43
7420 with void other major is resolved at 4D. Otherwise 4C is the highest bid (7420, 7411 and 6520, others are resolved at 3NT or lower).
#3
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Posted 2016-June-04, 10:44
Kungsgeten, on 2016-June-04, 10:43, said:
7420 with void other major is resolved at 4D. Otherwise 4C is the highest bid (7420 and 7411, others are resolved at 3NT or lower).
I suspect you are not including 7-5, 6-6, and 7-6 hands in this calculation. He only excluded 8-card suits.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
#4
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Posted 2016-June-04, 10:58
awm, on 2016-June-04, 10:44, said:
I suspect you are not including 7-5, 6-6, and 7-6 hands in this calculation. He only excluded 8-card suits.
Ok exclude these too.
Hi y'all!
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#5
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Posted 2016-June-04, 11:02
Unless you do some fancy magic 4C
#6
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Posted 2016-June-04, 11:11
Agree with 4C. I think Zelandakh's 1M denies 5332 and he uses 1N as GI+ relay.
#7
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Posted 2016-June-05, 04:26
Without having to distinguish between max and min? 3NT
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#8
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Posted 2016-June-05, 07:19
5422 3
5431 6
6421 6
6430 6
7420 6
7411 3
5440 3
6322 3
7222 1
6331 3
7321 6
7330 3
5521 6
5530 6
6511 3
6520 6
70
1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89 =10 steps
After 1N asking
2C-1
2D-2
2H-3
2S-4
2N-5
3C-6
3D-7
3H-8
3S-9
3N-10
In practice, you're likely to use symmetric structures that have frequently occurring patterns resolve at 3D or even 3C which would allow for a control ask. If so, your less frequently occurring patterns (6520, 7420) would run past 3N.
5431 6
6421 6
6430 6
7420 6
7411 3
5440 3
6322 3
7222 1
6331 3
7321 6
7330 3
5521 6
5530 6
6511 3
6520 6
70
1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89 =10 steps
After 1N asking
2C-1
2D-2
2H-3
2S-4
2N-5
3C-6
3D-7
3H-8
3S-9
3N-10
In practice, you're likely to use symmetric structures that have frequently occurring patterns resolve at 3D or even 3C which would allow for a control ask. If so, your less frequently occurring patterns (6520, 7420) would run past 3N.
#9
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Posted 2016-June-05, 07:45
I've been thinking of revising our relay structure (2C asks) as the single-suited resolve too high. Currently we use
2D-5332, C or any 5440
2H-D
2S-single-suited, 6+
etc-OM
Thinking of treating 5440 as 5431
2D-5332, C or 5D
.....2S-4C
.....2N-5C
.....3C-5332
.....etc-5D
2H-single-suited, 6+
2S-4D
etc-OM
Anyone think this is better? Other ideas?
2D-5332, C or any 5440
2H-D
2S-single-suited, 6+
etc-OM
Thinking of treating 5440 as 5431
2D-5332, C or 5D
.....2S-4C
.....2N-5C
.....3C-5332
.....etc-5D
2H-single-suited, 6+
2S-4D
etc-OM
Anyone think this is better? Other ideas?
#10
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Posted 2016-June-05, 10:38
I have two goals and tell me if you think I'm nuts.
1. I'm trying like heck to avoid opener rebidding 2N if 3N is a likely spot. Same goes for opener ever bidding a natural side suit first.
2. I'm not sure I mind shoving weird hand patterns into structures that take us past 4C IF we get the tradeoff of the more frequent patterns getting resolved at lower levels.
So right now it looks like after 2C:
A 2D =high side or 5440s
B 2H =middle side
C 2S = low side
D 2N = skewed patterns like 6511 or 7411
E 3C = 6M (331)
F 3D and higher: 73's
After a side suit is known, R asks hi/lo/equal short. For this structure, 6M (322) is considered two suited.
1. I'm trying like heck to avoid opener rebidding 2N if 3N is a likely spot. Same goes for opener ever bidding a natural side suit first.
2. I'm not sure I mind shoving weird hand patterns into structures that take us past 4C IF we get the tradeoff of the more frequent patterns getting resolved at lower levels.
So right now it looks like after 2C:
A 2D =high side or 5440s
B 2H =middle side
C 2S = low side
D 2N = skewed patterns like 6511 or 7411
E 3C = 6M (331)
F 3D and higher: 73's
After a side suit is known, R asks hi/lo/equal short. For this structure, 6M (322) is considered two suited.
Hi y'all!
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#11
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Posted 2016-June-05, 10:51
In addition, another goal is to get able to resolve major suiters as low as possible because 1M is 14+ unless the hand contains the other major and then its 10+ but it would be nice if we don't have to have a 13 count for 2C. The idea is that if opener is 10-12 to be able to put on the brakes in 2 or 3 of a major. A 2M opener (10-13) gets tricky when you have the other major.
Last, I'm trying to make this as symmetric as possible however 55's seem to be an odd duck since you only need to include these within the higher ranking suit.
Last, I'm trying to make this as symmetric as possible however 55's seem to be an odd duck since you only need to include these within the higher ranking suit.
Hi y'all!
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#12
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Posted 2016-June-05, 12:05
This is just an idea, which I think could work in your system, and will make the relays easier: Use the 2♦ as 10-13 with both majors (and possibly some other meaning if you're into multi-style bids). You could define it further by making 2♦ "anti-flannery" (5+♠ and 4+♥) and 10-13. In that case I would consider the following Kaplan Inversion thing, after the 1♥ opening:
1♥ (10+ with 5+♥ and 4♠ or 14+ with 5+♥)---
1♠ = Negative NT (0--4 spades) or GF relay.
1NT = 5+♠, F1.
2/1 = GF.
1♥--1♠;
1NT = "Gazzilli". 4♠ 10--17 or 18+ without 4♠.
2♣♦ = 4+ minor, 14--17. 2♠ relay.
2♥ = Single-suiter, 14--17. 2♠ relay.
2♠ = 4♠, 18+. 2NT relay.
2NT = 18+ with 5+♦. 3♣ relay.
1♥--1♠; 1NT---
2♣ = GF vs 18+ hand.
2♦ = Weak with 4♠. Opener's 2♥ is 18+ NF with 5+♥, 2♠ 10--17 and higher GF.
2♥ = Weak. Heart preference.
2♠ = Weak. 3♠, short hearts and both minors.
2NT = Weak. 5-5 minors and short hearts.
3♣♦ = Weak. 6+ minor and short hearts.
1♥--1♠; 1NT--2♣;
2♦ = 18+ with 4+ minor. 2♥ relay and then:
...2♠ = 4 clubs.
...2NT = 5 clubs.
...3♣+ = 4 diamonds.
2♥ = 5+♥, 4♠, 10--15. Now 2♠ is to play and 2NT is GF relay.
2♠ = 5+♥, 4♠, (15)16--17. 3♥ is to play, 2NT GF relay.
2NT+ = 6+♥, single-suiter 18+.
The 5440's a problematic here, but otherwise it should have you covered.
1♥ (10+ with 5+♥ and 4♠ or 14+ with 5+♥)---
1♠ = Negative NT (0--4 spades) or GF relay.
1NT = 5+♠, F1.
2/1 = GF.
1♥--1♠;
1NT = "Gazzilli". 4♠ 10--17 or 18+ without 4♠.
2♣♦ = 4+ minor, 14--17. 2♠ relay.
2♥ = Single-suiter, 14--17. 2♠ relay.
2♠ = 4♠, 18+. 2NT relay.
2NT = 18+ with 5+♦. 3♣ relay.
1♥--1♠; 1NT---
2♣ = GF vs 18+ hand.
2♦ = Weak with 4♠. Opener's 2♥ is 18+ NF with 5+♥, 2♠ 10--17 and higher GF.
2♥ = Weak. Heart preference.
2♠ = Weak. 3♠, short hearts and both minors.
2NT = Weak. 5-5 minors and short hearts.
3♣♦ = Weak. 6+ minor and short hearts.
1♥--1♠; 1NT--2♣;
2♦ = 18+ with 4+ minor. 2♥ relay and then:
...2♠ = 4 clubs.
...2NT = 5 clubs.
...3♣+ = 4 diamonds.
2♥ = 5+♥, 4♠, 10--15. Now 2♠ is to play and 2NT is GF relay.
2♠ = 5+♥, 4♠, (15)16--17. 3♥ is to play, 2NT GF relay.
2NT+ = 6+♥, single-suiter 18+.
The 5440's a problematic here, but otherwise it should have you covered.
#13
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Posted 2016-June-05, 15:17
Kungsgeten, on 2016-June-05, 12:05, said:
This is just an idea, which I think could work in your system, and will make the relays easier: Use the 2♦ as 10-13 with both majors (and possibly some other meaning if you're into multi-style bids). You could define it further by making 2♦ "anti-flannery" (5+♠ and 4+♥) and 10-13. In that case I would consider the following Kaplan Inversion thing, after the 1♥ opening:
1♥ (10+ with 5+♥ and 4♠ or 14+ with 5+♥)---
1♠ = Negative NT (0--4 spades) or GF relay.
1NT = 5+♠, F1.
2/1 = GF.
1♥--1♠;
1NT = "Gazzilli". 4♠ 10--17 or 18+ without 4♠.
2♣♦ = 4+ minor, 14--17. 2♠ relay.
2♥ = Single-suiter, 14--17. 2♠ relay.
2♠ = 4♠, 18+. 2NT relay.
2NT = 18+ with 5+♦. 3♣ relay.
1♥--1♠; 1NT---
2♣ = GF vs 18+ hand.
2♦ = Weak with 4♠. Opener's 2♥ is 18+ NF with 5+♥, 2♠ 10--17 and higher GF.
2♥ = Weak. Heart preference.
2♠ = Weak. 3♠, short hearts and both minors.
2NT = Weak. 5-5 minors and short hearts.
3♣♦ = Weak. 6+ minor and short hearts.
1♥--1♠; 1NT--2♣;
2♦ = 18+ with 4+ minor. 2♥ relay and then:
...2♠ = 4 clubs.
...2NT = 5 clubs.
...3♣+ = 4 diamonds.
2♥ = 5+♥, 4♠, 10--15. Now 2♠ is to play and 2NT is GF relay.
2♠ = 5+♥, 4♠, (15)16--17. 3♥ is to play, 2NT GF relay.
2NT+ = 6+♥, single-suiter 18+.
The 5440's a problematic here, but otherwise it should have you covered.
1♥ (10+ with 5+♥ and 4♠ or 14+ with 5+♥)---
1♠ = Negative NT (0--4 spades) or GF relay.
1NT = 5+♠, F1.
2/1 = GF.
1♥--1♠;
1NT = "Gazzilli". 4♠ 10--17 or 18+ without 4♠.
2♣♦ = 4+ minor, 14--17. 2♠ relay.
2♥ = Single-suiter, 14--17. 2♠ relay.
2♠ = 4♠, 18+. 2NT relay.
2NT = 18+ with 5+♦. 3♣ relay.
1♥--1♠; 1NT---
2♣ = GF vs 18+ hand.
2♦ = Weak with 4♠. Opener's 2♥ is 18+ NF with 5+♥, 2♠ 10--17 and higher GF.
2♥ = Weak. Heart preference.
2♠ = Weak. 3♠, short hearts and both minors.
2NT = Weak. 5-5 minors and short hearts.
3♣♦ = Weak. 6+ minor and short hearts.
1♥--1♠; 1NT--2♣;
2♦ = 18+ with 4+ minor. 2♥ relay and then:
...2♠ = 4 clubs.
...2NT = 5 clubs.
...3♣+ = 4 diamonds.
2♥ = 5+♥, 4♠, 10--15. Now 2♠ is to play and 2NT is GF relay.
2♠ = 5+♥, 4♠, (15)16--17. 3♥ is to play, 2NT GF relay.
2NT+ = 6+♥, single-suiter 18+.
The 5440's a problematic here, but otherwise it should have you covered.
Somewhat close to the current structure.
1H 1S is KI. 1N rebid is 45 or any awkward 17+
Decided that relayer needs true GF or a fit for a major. 10-12 with fit breaks relay after 1M 2C 2D (other major).
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#14
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Posted 2016-June-07, 09:05
If 1H is never 5332.
1H--??
1S relay can be anything
1NT = 5+ Spades
2m = non forcing
1H-1S-?
1NT= clubs-----2C=pref,2D art GF,2H=pref,3C/3H inv. Note that if you make a pref opener will bid on with 18+
2C=diamonds (same pattern but 2S is art GF
2D=6H (2S is art GF)
2H = min with 4S+5H
2S = 15-17 with 4S+5H
2NT = H+S 18+
1H-2m will be somewhat rare but I dont think having 2 GF relay is optimal.
Possible to use
1H-2C as
to play 2D
inv raise to 2H
GF with D
1H-2D = GF with clubs.
1H--??
1S relay can be anything
1NT = 5+ Spades
2m = non forcing
1H-1S-?
1NT= clubs-----2C=pref,2D art GF,2H=pref,3C/3H inv. Note that if you make a pref opener will bid on with 18+
2C=diamonds (same pattern but 2S is art GF
2D=6H (2S is art GF)
2H = min with 4S+5H
2S = 15-17 with 4S+5H
2NT = H+S 18+
1H-2m will be somewhat rare but I dont think having 2 GF relay is optimal.
Possible to use
1H-2C as
to play 2D
inv raise to 2H
GF with D
1H-2D = GF with clubs.
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
#15
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Posted 2016-June-07, 09:51
I'm not sure 1H 1S as a relay (or maybe negatice) works with our,methods since 1H is a one round force.
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#16
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Posted 2016-June-07, 10:30
Phil, on 2016-June-05, 10:38, said:
I have two goals and tell me if you think I'm nuts.
1. I'm trying like heck to avoid opener rebidding 2N if 3N is a likely spot. Same goes for opener ever bidding a natural side suit first.
2. I'm not sure I mind shoving weird hand patterns into structures that take us past 4C IF we get the tradeoff of the more frequent patterns getting resolved at lower levels.
1. I'm trying like heck to avoid opener rebidding 2N if 3N is a likely spot. Same goes for opener ever bidding a natural side suit first.
2. I'm not sure I mind shoving weird hand patterns into structures that take us past 4C IF we get the tradeoff of the more frequent patterns getting resolved at lower levels.
http://www.syskon.nu...welland_2-1.pdf (pp. 20-25)
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Posted 2016-June-20, 07:05
straube, on 2016-June-04, 11:11, said:
Agree with 4C. I think Zelandakh's 1M denies 5332 and he uses 1N as GI+ relay.
This is correct except that it is 1M+1, so the relay is 1♠ over a 1♥ opening. In practise, it equates to sym+1 over a 1♥ opening and sym+2 after 1♠, although the exact method used is not standard symmetric but an equivalent one that I find more logical. The basic structure for 1♥ is below (hopefully no errors, I typed this out manually fairly quickly).
1♥ - 1♠
=======
1NT = min without 4 spades (then 2♣ GF relay transposes to the 2♦+ rebids below)
2♣ = 4+ spades
... - 2♦ = GF relay
... - ... - 2♥ = min (then 2♠ relay transposes to the 2NT+ continuations below)
... - ... - 2♠ = 5+ spades or 45(40)
... - ... - 2NT = 45xy
... - ... - ... - 3♣ = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♦ = 4513
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 4522
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠+ = 4531
... - ... - 3♣ = 4603/4612
... - ... - ... - 3♦ = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 4603
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠+ = 4612
... - ... - 3♦ = 4621
... - ... - 3♥ = 4630
... - ... - 3♠+ = 47xy
2♦ = 4+ clubs, GF
... - 2♥ = relay
... - ... - 2♠ = 5+ clubs
... - ... - ... - 2NT = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♣ = 0535/1525
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♦ = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 0535
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠+ = 1525
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♦ = 2515
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 3505
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠+ = 6+ hearts
... - ... - 2NT = x5y4
... - ... - ... - 3♣ = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♦ = 1534
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 2524
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠+ = 3514
... - ... - 3♣ = 0634/1624
... - ... - ... - 3♦ = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 0634
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠+ = 1624
... - ... - 3♦ = 2614
... - ... - 3♥ = 3604
... - ... - 3♠+ = x7y4
2♥ = one-suited
... - 2♠ = relay
... - ... - 2NT = 3 spades
... - ... - ... - 3♣ = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♦ = 3 clubs
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♥ = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠ = 3613
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3NT+ = 3703
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 3 diamonds
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠ = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3NT = 3631
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 4♣+ = 3730
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠ = 3622
... - ... - ... - ... - 3NT = 3712
... - ... - ... - ... - 4♣+ = 3721
... - ... - 3♣ = 3 diamonds
... - ... - ... - 3♦ = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 3 clubs
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠ = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3NT = 1633
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 4♣+ = 0733
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠ = 2632
... - ... - ... - ... - 3NT = 1732
... - ... - ... - ... - 4♣+ = 2731
... - ... - 3♦ = 3 clubs
... - ... - ... - 3♥ = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠ = 2623
... - ... - ... - ... - 3NT = 1723
... - ... - ... - ... - 4♣+ = 2713
... - ... - 3♥ = 8+ hearts, short spades
... - ... - 3♠ = 2722
... - ... - 3NT+ = 8+ hearts, short minor
2♠ = 5+ diamonds
... - 2NT = relay
... - ... - 3♣ = 0553/1552
... - ... - ... - 3♦ = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 0553
... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠+ = 1552
... - ... - 3♦ = 2551
... - ... - 3♥ = 3550
... - ... - 3♠+ = 6+ hearts
2NT = x54y, GF
... - 3♣ = relay
... - ... - 3♦ = 1543
... - ... - 3♥ = 2542
... - ... - 3♠+ = 3541
3♣ = 0643/1642, GF
... - 3♦ = relay
... - ... - 3♥ = 0643
... - ... - 3♠+ = 1642
3♦ = 2641, GF
3♥ = 3640, GF
3♠+ = x74y, GF
As you can see, a number of sequences end in 3♦ so this could easily be improved upon if you were just trying to minimise the worst case. This is a dubious goal though, as you often gain more by making the common shapes efficient than by keeping the rare ones a step lower.
A sensible person would also redistribute the hands - 1♥ has more space than 1♠ so hands with 5-5 in the majors should logically not be opened 1♠. Sometimes practical considerations force other (sub-optimal) solutions to be used.
(-: Zel :-)
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